Horton

Thread

Commits

  1. Re-enable autoruns for cmd.exe on Windows

  2. Re-enable autoruns for for cmd.exe on Windows

  3. pg_regress: Disable autoruns for cmd.exe on Windows

  4. pg_ctl: Disable autoruns for cmd.exe on Windows

  1. pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-07T07:07:36Z

    Dear hackers,

While investigating the cfbot failure [1], I found a strange behavior of pg_ctl
command. How do you think? Is this a bug to be fixed or in the specification?

# Problem

The "pg_ctl start" command returns 0 (succeeded) even if the cluster has
already been started. This occurs on Windows environment, and when the command
is executed just after postmaster starts.


# Analysis

The primal reason is in wait_for_postmaster_start(). In this function the
postmaster.pid file is read and checked whether the start command is
successfully done or not.

Check (1) requires that the postmaster must be started after the our pg_ctl
command, but 2 seconds delay is accepted. 

In the linux mode, the check (2) is also executed to ensures that the forked
process modified the file, so this time window is not so problematic.
But in the windows system, (2) is ignored, *so the pg_ctl command may be
succeeded if the postmaster is started within 2 seconds.*

```
		if ((optlines = readfile(pid_file, &numlines)) != NULL &&
			numlines >= LOCK_FILE_LINE_PM_STATUS)
		{
			/* File is complete enough for us, parse it */
			pid_t		pmpid;
			time_t		pmstart;

			/*
			 * Make sanity checks.  If it's for the wrong PID, or the recorded
			 * start time is before pg_ctl started, then either we are looking
			 * at the wrong data directory, or this is a pre-existing pidfile
			 * that hasn't (yet?) been overwritten by our child postmaster.
			 * Allow 2 seconds slop for possible cross-process clock skew.
			 */
			pmpid = atol(optlines[LOCK_FILE_LINE_PID - 1]);
			pmstart = atol(optlines[LOCK_FILE_LINE_START_TIME - 1]);
			if (pmstart >= start_time - 2 && // (1)
#ifndef WIN32
				pmpid == pm_pid // (2)
#else
			/* Windows can only reject standalone-backend PIDs */
				pmpid > 0
#endif

```

# Appendix - how do I found?

I found it while investigating the failure. In the test "pg_upgrade --check"
is executed just after old cluster has been started. I checked the output file [2]
and found that the banner says "Performing Consistency Checks", which meant that
the parameter live_check was set to false (see output_check_banner()). This
parameter is set to true when the postmaster has been started at that time and
the pg_ctl start fails. That's how I find.

[1]: https://cirrus-ci.com/task/4634769732927488
[2]: https://api.cirrus-ci.com/v1/artifact/task/4634769732927488/testrun/build/testrun/pg_upgrade/003_logical_replication_slots/data/t_003_logical_replication_slots_new_publisher_data/pgdata/pg_upgrade_output.d/20230905T080645.548/log/pg_upgrade_internal.log

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  2. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2023-09-07T07:37:08Z

    On Thu, Sep 07, 2023 at 07:07:36AM +0000, Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) wrote:
> # Problem
> 
> The "pg_ctl start" command returns 0 (succeeded) even if the cluster has
> already been started. This occurs on Windows environment, and when the command
> is executed just after postmaster starts.

Not failing on `pg_ctl start` if the command is run on a data folder
that has already been started previously by a different command with a
postmaster still alive feels like cheating, because pg_ctl is lying
about its result.  If pg_ctl wants to start a cluster but is not able
to do it, either because the postmaster failed at startup or because
the cluster has already started, it should report a failure.  Now, I
also recall that the processes spawned by pg_ctl on Windows make the
status handling rather tricky to reason about..
--
Michael

  3. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-07T10:53:41Z

    Dear Michael,

Thank you for replying!

> Not failing on `pg_ctl start` if the command is run on a data folder
> that has already been started previously by a different command with a
> postmaster still alive feels like cheating, because pg_ctl is lying
> about its result.  If pg_ctl wants to start a cluster but is not able
> to do it, either because the postmaster failed at startup or because
> the cluster has already started, it should report a failure.

I have a same feelings as you. Users may use the return code in their batch file
and they may decide what to do based on the wrong status. Reporting the status
more accurately is nice.

My first idea is that to move the checking part to above, but this may not handle
the case the postmaster is still alive (now sure this is real issue). Do we have to
add a new indicator which ensures the identity of processes for windows?
Please tell me how you feel.

> Now, I
> also recall that the processes spawned by pg_ctl on Windows make the
> status handling rather tricky to reason about..

Did you say about the below comment? Currently I have no idea to make
codes more proper, sorry.

```
		 * On Windows, we may be checking the postmaster's parent shell, but
		 * that's fine for this purpose.
```

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  4. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-09-08T05:17:16Z

    At Thu, 7 Sep 2023 10:53:41 +0000, "Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)" <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote in 
> My first idea is that to move the checking part to above, but this may not handle
> the case the postmaster is still alive (now sure this is real issue). Do we have to
> add a new indicator which ensures the identity of processes for windows?
> Please tell me how you feel.

It doesn't seem to work as expected. We still lose the relationship
between the PID file and the launched postmaster.

> > Now, I
> > also recall that the processes spawned by pg_ctl on Windows make the
> > status handling rather tricky to reason about..
> 
> Did you say about the below comment? Currently I have no idea to make
> codes more proper, sorry.
> 
> ```
> 		 * On Windows, we may be checking the postmaster's parent shell, but
> 		 * that's fine for this purpose.
> ```

Ditching cmd.exe seems like a big hassle. So, on the flip side, I
tried to identify the postmaster PID using the shell's PID, and it
seem to work. The APIs used are avaiable from XP/2003 onwards.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  5. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-09-08T05:22:09Z

    At Fri, 08 Sep 2023 14:17:16 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> Ditching cmd.exe seems like a big hassle. So, on the flip side, I
> tried to identify the postmaster PID using the shell's PID, and it
> seem to work. The APIs used are avaiable from XP/2003 onwards.

Cleaned it up a bit.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  6. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-08T08:02:57Z

    Dear Hoiguchi-san,

Thank you for making the patch!

> It doesn't seem to work as expected. We still lose the relationship
> between the PID file and the launched postmaster.

Yes, I did not expect that the relationship can be kept.
Conceptually +1 for your approach.

> > Ditching cmd.exe seems like a big hassle. So, on the flip side, I
> > tried to identify the postmaster PID using the shell's PID, and it
> > seem to work. The APIs used are avaiable from XP/2003 onwards.

According to 495ed0ef2, Windows 10 seems the minimal requirement for using
the postgres. So the approach seems OK.

Followings are my comment, but I can say only cosmetic ones because I do not have
windows machine which can run postgres.


1.
Forward declaration seems missing. In the pg_ctl.c, the static function seems to
be declared even if there is only one caller (c.f., GetPrivilegesToDelete).

2.
I think the argument should be pid_t.

3.
I'm not sure the return type of the function should be pid_t or not. According
to the document, DWORD corrresponds to the pid_t. In win32_port.h, the pid_t is
defiend as int (_MSC_VER seems to be defined when the VisualStduio is used). It
is harmless, but I perfer to match the interface between caller/callee. IIUC we
can add just a cast.

```
#ifdef _MSC_VER
typedef int pid_t;
#endif
```

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  7. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-09-13T06:52:39Z

    At Fri, 8 Sep 2023 08:02:57 +0000, "Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)" <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote in 
> > > Ditching cmd.exe seems like a big hassle. So, on the flip side, I
> > > tried to identify the postmaster PID using the shell's PID, and it
> > > seem to work. The APIs used are avaiable from XP/2003 onwards.
> 
> According to 495ed0ef2, Windows 10 seems the minimal requirement for using
> the postgres. So the approach seems OK.
> 
> Followings are my comment, but I can say only cosmetic ones because I do not have
> windows machine which can run postgres.

Thank you for the comment!

> 1.
> Forward declaration seems missing. In the pg_ctl.c, the static function seems to
> be declared even if there is only one caller (c.f., GetPrivilegesToDelete).

Agreed. 

> 2.
> I think the argument should be pid_t.

Yeah, I didn't linger on that detail earlier. But revisiting it, I
coucur it is best suited since it is a local function in
pg_ctl.c. I've now positioned it at the end of a WIN32 section
defining other win32-specific functions. Hence, a forward declaration
became necessary:p

> 3.
> I'm not sure the return type of the function should be pid_t or not. According
> to the document, DWORD corrresponds to the pid_t. In win32_port.h, the pid_t is
> defiend as int (_MSC_VER seems to be defined when the VisualStduio is used). It
> is harmless, but I perfer to match the interface between caller/callee. IIUC we
> can add just a cast.

For the reason previously stated, I've adjusted the type for both the
parameter and the return value to pid_t. start_postmaster() already
assumed that pid_t is wider than DWORD.

I noticed that PID 0 is valid on Windows. However, it is consistently
the PID for the system idle process, so it can't be associated with
cmd.exe or postgres. I've added a comment noting that premise. Also I
did away with an unused variable.  For the CreateToolhelp32Snapshot
function, I changed the second parameter to 0 from shell_pid, since it
is not used when using TH32CS_SNAPPROCESS.  I changed the comparison
operator for pid_t from > to !=, ensuring correct behavior even with
negative values.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  8. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-19T02:37:20Z

    Dear Horiguchi-san,

I have tested your patch on my CI, but several test could not patch with error:
"pg_ctl: launcher shell executed multiple processes".

I added the thread to next CF entry, so let's see the how cfbot says.

[1]: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/45/4573/

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  9. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-19T13:48:55Z

    Dear Horiguchi-san,

> I added the thread to next CF entry, so let's see the how cfbot says.

At least there are several compiler warnings. E.g.,

* pgwin32_find_postmaster_pid() has "return;", but IIUC it should be "exit(1)"
* When DWORD is printed, "%lx" should be used.
* The variable "flags" seems not needed.

Here is a patch which suppresses warnings, whereas test would fail...
You can use it if acceptable.

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  10. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-09-20T05:18:41Z

    At Tue, 19 Sep 2023 13:48:55 +0000, "Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)" <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote in 
> Dear Horiguchi-san,
> 
> > I added the thread to next CF entry, so let's see the how cfbot says.
> 
> At least there are several compiler warnings. E.g.,
> 
> * pgwin32_find_postmaster_pid() has "return;", but IIUC it should be "exit(1)"
> * When DWORD is printed, "%lx" should be used.
> * The variable "flags" seems not needed.

Yeah, I thought that they all have been fixed but.. you are right in
every respect.

> Here is a patch which suppresses warnings, whereas test would fail...
> You can use it if acceptable.

I was able to see the trouble in the CI environment, but not
locally. I'll delve deeper into this. Thanks you for bringing it to my
attention.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  11. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-09-22T07:15:51Z

    At Wed, 20 Sep 2023 14:18:41 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> I was able to see the trouble in the CI environment, but not
> locally. I'll delve deeper into this. Thanks you for bringing it to my
> attention.

I found two instances with multiple child processes.

# child-pid / parent-pid / given-pid : exec name
process  parent PID  child PID  target PID   exec file
shell       1228       6472        1228      cmd.exe
child       5184       1228        1228      cmd.exe
child       6956       1228        1228      postgres.exe
> launcher shell executed multiple processes

process  parent PID  child PID  target PID   exec file
shell       4296       5880        4296      cmd.exe
child       5156       4296        4296      agent.exe
child       5640       4296        4296      postgres.exe
> launcher shell executed multiple processes

It looks like the environment has autorun setups for cmd.exe. There's
another known issue related to auto-launching chcp at
startup. Ideally, we would avoid such behavior in the
postmaster-launcher shell.  I think we should add "/D" flag to cmd.exe
command line, perhaps in a separate patch.

Even after making that change, I still see something being launched from the launcher cmd.exe...

process  parent PID  child PID  target PID   exec file
shell       2784       6668        2784      cmd.exe
child       6140       2784        2784      MicrosoftEdgeUpdate.exe
child       6260       2784        2784      postgres.exe
> launcher shell executed multiple processes

I'm not sure what triggers this; perhaps some other kind of hooks?  If
we cannot avoid this behavior, we'll have to verify the executable
file name. It should be fine, given that the file name is constant,
but I'm not fully convinced that this is the ideal solution.

Another issue is.. that I haven't been able to cause the false
positive of pg_ctl start..  Do you have a concise reproducer of the
issue?

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  12. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-09-22T12:20:56Z

    Dear Horiguchi-san,

Thank you for making a patch! They can pass ci.
I'm still not sure what should be, but I can respond a part.

> Another issue is.. that I haven't been able to cause the false
> positive of pg_ctl start..  Do you have a concise reproducer of the
> issue?

I found a short sleep in pg_ctl/t/001_start_stop.pl. This was introduced in
6bcce2580 to ensure waiting more than 2 seconds. I've tested on my CI and
found that removing the sleep can trigger the failure. Also, I confirmed your patch
fixes the problem. PSA the small patch for cfbot. 0001 and 0002 were not changed.

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  13. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Shlok Kyal <shlok.kyal.oss@gmail.com> — 2023-10-06T06:58:32Z

    On Fri, 6 Oct 2023 at 11:38, Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)
<kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Horiguchi-san,
>
> Thank you for making a patch! They can pass ci.
> I'm still not sure what should be, but I can respond a part.
>
> > Another issue is.. that I haven't been able to cause the false
> > positive of pg_ctl start..  Do you have a concise reproducer of the
> > issue?
>
> I found a short sleep in pg_ctl/t/001_start_stop.pl. This was introduced in
> 6bcce2580 to ensure waiting more than 2 seconds. I've tested on my CI and
> found that removing the sleep can trigger the failure. Also, I confirmed your patch
> fixes the problem. PSA the small patch for cfbot. 0001 and 0002 were not changed.

I have tested the patches on my windows setup.
I am trying to start two postgres servers with an interval of 5 secs.

with HEAD (when same server is started after an interval of 5 secs):
D:\project\pg\bin>pg_ctl -D ../data -l data2.log start
pg_ctl: another server might be running; trying to start server anyway
waiting for server to start.... stopped waiting
pg_ctl: could not start server
Examine the log output.

with Patch:(when same server is started after an interval of 5 secs)
D:\project\pg_dev\bin>pg_ctl -D ../data -l data2.log start
pg_ctl: another server might be running; trying to start server anyway
waiting for server to start....pg_ctl: launcher shell died

The output message after patch is different from the HEAD. I felt that
with patch as well we should get the message  "pg_ctl: could not start
server".
Is this message change intentional?

Thanks,
Shlok Kumar Kyal

  14. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-10-10T01:52:55Z

    Thank you for testing this!

At Fri, 6 Oct 2023 12:28:32 +0530, Shlok Kyal <shlok.kyal.oss@gmail.com> wrote i> D:\project\pg_dev\bin>pg_ctl -D ../data -l data2.log start
> pg_ctl: another server might be running; trying to start server anyway
> waiting for server to start....pg_ctl: launcher shell died
> 
> The output message after patch is different from the HEAD. I felt that
> with patch as well we should get the message  "pg_ctl: could not start
> server".
> Is this message change intentional?

Partly no, partly yes. My focus was on verifying the accuracy of
identifying the actual postmaster PID on Windows. The current patch
provides a detailed description of the events, primarily because I
lack a comprehensive understanding of both the behavior of Windows
APIs and the associated processes.  Given that context, the messages
essentially serve debugging purposes.

I agree with your suggestion.  Ultimately, if there's a possibility
for this to be committed, the message will be consolidated to "could
not start server".

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  15. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-10-23T08:57:19Z

    Dear Horiguchi-san, Shlok,

> 
> At Fri, 6 Oct 2023 12:28:32 +0530, Shlok Kyal <shlok.kyal.oss@gmail.com> wrote
> i> D:\project\pg_dev\bin>pg_ctl -D ../data -l data2.log start
> > pg_ctl: another server might be running; trying to start server anyway
> > waiting for server to start....pg_ctl: launcher shell died
> >
> > The output message after patch is different from the HEAD. I felt that
> > with patch as well we should get the message  "pg_ctl: could not start
> > server".
> > Is this message change intentional?
> 
> Partly no, partly yes. My focus was on verifying the accuracy of
> identifying the actual postmaster PID on Windows. The current patch
> provides a detailed description of the events, primarily because I
> lack a comprehensive understanding of both the behavior of Windows
> APIs and the associated processes.  Given that context, the messages
> essentially serve debugging purposes.
> 
> I agree with your suggestion.  Ultimately, if there's a possibility
> for this to be committed, the message will be consolidated to "could
> not start server".

Based on the suggestion, I tried to update the patch.
A new argument is_valid is added for reporting callee. Also, reporting formats
are adjusted based on other functions. How do you think?

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  16. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-10-24T06:00:27Z

    At Mon, 23 Oct 2023 08:57:19 +0000, "Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)" <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote in 
> > I agree with your suggestion.  Ultimately, if there's a possibility
> > for this to be committed, the message will be consolidated to "could
> > not start server".
> 
> Based on the suggestion, I tried to update the patch.
> A new argument is_valid is added for reporting callee. Also, reporting formats
> are adjusted based on other functions. How do you think?

An equivalent check is already done shortly afterward in the calling
function. Therefore, we can simply remove the code path for "launcher
shell died", and it will work the same way. Please find the attached.

Other error cases will fit to "shouldn't occur under normal
conditions" errors.

There is a possibility that the launcher shell terminates while
postmaster is running. Even in such a case, the server continue
working without any problems. I contemplated accomodating this case
but the effort required seemed disproportionate to the possibility.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  17. RE: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu) <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> — 2023-10-24T07:37:22Z

    Dear Horiguchi-san,

Thanks for updates! I was quite not sure the Windows env, but I can post comments.
(We need reviews by windows-friendly developers...)

> Other error cases will fit to "shouldn't occur under normal
> conditions" errors.

Formatting of messages for write_stderr() seem different from others. In v3,
I slightly modified for readability like below. I wanted to let you know just in case
because you did not say anything about these changes...

```
+	/* create a process snapshot */
+	hSnapshot = CreateToolhelp32Snapshot(TH32CS_SNAPPROCESS, 0);
+	if (hSnapshot == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE)
+	{
+		write_stderr(_("%s: could not create a snapshot: error code %lu\n"),
+					 progname, (unsigned long) GetLastError());
+		exit(1);
+	}
+
+	/* start iterating on the snapshot */
+	ppe.dwSize = sizeof(PROCESSENTRY32);
+	if (!Process32First(hSnapshot, &ppe))
+	{
+		write_stderr(_("%s: cound not retrieve information about the process: error code %lu\n"),
+					 progname, GetLastError());
+		exit(1);
+	}
+
```

Best Regards,
Hayato Kuroda
FUJITSU LIMITED

  18. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2023-10-24T08:25:36Z

    At Tue, 24 Oct 2023 07:37:22 +0000, "Hayato Kuroda (Fujitsu)" <kuroda.hayato@fujitsu.com> wrote in 
> Dear Horiguchi-san,
> 
> Thanks for updates! I was quite not sure the Windows env, but I can post comments.
> (We need reviews by windows-friendly developers...)

Indeed, I haven't managed to successfully build using Meson on
Windows...

> Formatting of messages for write_stderr() seem different from others. In v3,
> I slightly modified for readability like below. I wanted to let you know just in case
> because you did not say anything about these changes...

Ah. Sorry, I was lazy about the messages because I didn't regard this
to be at that stage yet.

In the attached, fixed the existing two messages, and adjusted one
message to display an error code, all in the consistent format.

Thanks!

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  19. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> — 2024-01-05T19:58:55Z

    On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:28 AM Kyotaro Horiguchi
<horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the attached, fixed the existing two messages, and adjusted one
> message to display an error code, all in the consistent format.

Hi,

I'm not a Windows expert, but my guess is that 0001 is a very good
idea. I hope someone who is a Windows expert will comment on that.

0002 seems problematic to me. One potential issue is that it would
break if someone renamed postgres.exe to something else -- although
that's probably not really a serious problem. A bigger issue is that
it seems like it would break if someone used pg_ctl to start several
instances in different data directories on the same machine. If I'm
understanding correctly, that currently mostly works, and this would
break it.

-- 
Robert Haas
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com

  20. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-01-09T00:40:23Z

    On Fri, Jan 05, 2024 at 02:58:55PM -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> I'm not a Windows expert, but my guess is that 0001 is a very good
> idea. I hope someone who is a Windows expert will comment on that.

I am +1 on 0001.  It is just something we've never anticipated when
these wrappers around cmd in pg_ctl were written.

> 0002 seems problematic to me. One potential issue is that it would
> break if someone renamed postgres.exe to something else -- although
> that's probably not really a serious problem.

We do a find_other_exec_or_die() on "postgres" with what could be a
custom execution path.  So we're actually sure that the binary will be
there in the start path, no?  I don't like much the hardcoded
dependency to .exe here.

> A bigger issue is that
> it seems like it would break if someone used pg_ctl to start several
> instances in different data directories on the same machine. If I'm
> understanding correctly, that currently mostly works, and this would
> break it.

Not having the guarantee that a single shell_pid is associated to a
single postgres.exe would be a problem.  Now the patch includes this
code:
+		if (ppe.th32ParentProcessID == shell_pid &&
+			strcmp("postgres.exe", ppe.szExeFile) == 0)
+		{
+			if (pm_pid != ppe.th32ProcessID && pm_pid != 0)
+				multiple_children = true;
+			pm_pid = ppe.th32ProcessID;
+		}

Which is basically giving this guarantee?  multiple_children should
never happen once the autorun part is removed.  Is that right?

+        * The launcher shell might start other cmd.exe instances or programs
+        * besides postgres.exe. Veryfying the program file name is essential.

With the autorun part of cmd.exe removed, what's still relevant here?
s/Veryfying/Verifying/.

Perhaps 0002 should make more efforts in documenting things like
th32ProcessID and th32ParentProcessID.
--
Michael

  21. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-01-10T01:44:19Z

    On Tue, Jan 09, 2024 at 09:40:23AM +0900, Michael Paquier wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2024 at 02:58:55PM -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> > I'm not a Windows expert, but my guess is that 0001 is a very good
> > idea. I hope someone who is a Windows expert will comment on that.
> 
> I am +1 on 0001.  It is just something we've never anticipated when
> these wrappers around cmd in pg_ctl were written.

I have now applied 0001 for pg_ctl.

While reviewing that, I have also noticed spawn_process() in
pg_regress.c that includes direct command invocations with cmd.exe /c.
Could it make sense to append an extra /d for this case as well?
--
Michael

  22. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2024-01-10T02:40:12Z

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
> I have now applied 0001 for pg_ctl.

> While reviewing that, I have also noticed spawn_process() in
> pg_regress.c that includes direct command invocations with cmd.exe /c.
> Could it make sense to append an extra /d for this case as well?

No Windows expert here, but it does seem like the same argument
applies.

			regards, tom lane

  23. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-01-11T03:40:35Z

    On Tue, Jan 09, 2024 at 09:40:12PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> No Windows expert here, but it does seem like the same argument
> applies.

Yeah, I've applied the same restriction for pg_regress to avoid
similar problems as we spawn a postgres process in this case.  I've
tested it and it was not causing issues in my own setup or the CI.

I am wondering if we'd better backpatch all that, TBH.
--
Michael

  24. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2024-01-11T04:02:00Z

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
> I am wondering if we'd better backpatch all that, TBH.

Seems like a good idea to me.

			regards, tom lane

  25. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2024-01-11T08:33:22Z

    Thanks for restarting this thread.

At Tue, 9 Jan 2024 09:40:23 +0900, Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> wrote in 
> On Fri, Jan 05, 2024 at 02:58:55PM -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> > I'm not a Windows expert, but my guess is that 0001 is a very good
> > idea. I hope someone who is a Windows expert will comment on that.
> 
> I am +1 on 0001.  It is just something we've never anticipated when
> these wrappers around cmd in pg_ctl were written.

Thanks for committing it.

> > 0002 seems problematic to me. One potential issue is that it would
> > break if someone renamed postgres.exe to something else -- although
> > that's probably not really a serious problem.
> 
> We do a find_other_exec_or_die() on "postgres" with what could be a
> custom execution path.  So we're actually sure that the binary will be
> there in the start path, no?  I don't like much the hardcoded
> dependency to .exe here.

The patch doesn't care of the path for postgres.exe. If you are referring to the code you cited below, it's for another reason. I'll describe that there.

> > A bigger issue is that
> > it seems like it would break if someone used pg_ctl to start several
> > instances in different data directories on the same machine. If I'm
> > understanding correctly, that currently mostly works, and this would
> > break it.
> 
> Not having the guarantee that a single shell_pid is associated to a
> single postgres.exe would be a problem.  Now the patch includes this
> code:
> +		if (ppe.th32ParentProcessID == shell_pid &&
> +			strcmp("postgres.exe", ppe.szExeFile) == 0)
> +		{
> +			if (pm_pid != ppe.th32ProcessID && pm_pid != 0)
> +				multiple_children = true;
> +			pm_pid = ppe.th32ProcessID;
> +		}
> 
> Which is basically giving this guarantee?  multiple_children should
> never happen once the autorun part is removed.  Is that right?

The patch indeed ensures the relationship between the parent
pg_ctl.exe and postgres.exe.  However, for some reason, in my Windows
11 environment with the /D option specified, I observed that another
cmd.exe is spawned as the second child process of the parent
cmd.exe. This is why there is a need to verify the executable file
name. I have no idea how the second cmd.exe is being spawned.

> +        * The launcher shell might start other cmd.exe instances or programs
> +        * besides postgres.exe. Veryfying the program file name is essential.
> 
> With the autorun part of cmd.exe removed, what's still relevant here?

Yes, if the strcmp() is commented out, multiple_children sometimes
becomes true..

> s/Veryfying/Verifying/.

Oops!

> Perhaps 0002 should make more efforts in documenting things like
> th32ProcessID and th32ParentProcessID.

Is it correct to understand that you are requesting changes as follows?

--- a/src/bin/pg_ctl/pg_ctl.c
+++ b/src/bin/pg_ctl/pg_ctl.c
@@ -1995,11 +1995,14 @@ pgwin32_find_postmaster_pid(pid_t shell_pid)
 	 *
 	 * Check for duplicate processes to ensure reliability.
 	 *
- 	 * The launcher shell might start other cmd.exe instances or programs
-	 * besides postgres.exe. Verifying the program file name is essential.
-	 *
-	 * The launcher shell process isn't checked in this function.  It will be
-	 * checked by the caller.
+	 * The ppe entry to be examined is identified by th32ParentProcessID, which
+	 * should correspond to the cmd.exe process that executes the postgres.exe
+	 * binary. Additionally, th32ProcessID in the same entry should be the PID
+	 * of the launched postgres.exe. However, even though we have launched the
+	 * parent cmd.exe with the /D option specified, it is sometimes observed
+	 * that another cmd.exe is launched for unknown reasons. Therefore, it is
+	 * crucial to verify the program file name to avoid returning the wrong
+	 * PID.
 	 */


regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  26. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> — 2024-01-15T18:34:46Z

    On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 3:33 AM Kyotaro Horiguchi
<horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it correct to understand that you are requesting changes as follows?
>
> --- a/src/bin/pg_ctl/pg_ctl.c
> +++ b/src/bin/pg_ctl/pg_ctl.c
> @@ -1995,11 +1995,14 @@ pgwin32_find_postmaster_pid(pid_t shell_pid)
>          *
>          * Check for duplicate processes to ensure reliability.
>          *
> -        * The launcher shell might start other cmd.exe instances or programs
> -        * besides postgres.exe. Verifying the program file name is essential.
> -        *
> -        * The launcher shell process isn't checked in this function.  It will be
> -        * checked by the caller.
> +        * The ppe entry to be examined is identified by th32ParentProcessID, which
> +        * should correspond to the cmd.exe process that executes the postgres.exe
> +        * binary. Additionally, th32ProcessID in the same entry should be the PID
> +        * of the launched postgres.exe. However, even though we have launched the
> +        * parent cmd.exe with the /D option specified, it is sometimes observed
> +        * that another cmd.exe is launched for unknown reasons. Therefore, it is
> +        * crucial to verify the program file name to avoid returning the wrong
> +        * PID.
>          */

This kind of change looks massively helpful to me. I don't know if it
is exactly right or not, but it would have been a big help to me when
writing my previous review, so +1 for some change of this general
type.

-- 
Robert Haas
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com

  27. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-06-03T23:30:19Z

    On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 01:34:46PM -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> This kind of change looks massively helpful to me. I don't know if it
> is exactly right or not, but it would have been a big help to me when
> writing my previous review, so +1 for some change of this general
> type.

During a live review of this patch last week, as part of the Advanced
Patch Workshop of pgconf.dev, it has been mentioned by Tom that we may
be able to simplify the check on pmstart if the detection of the
postmaster PID started by pg_ctl is more stable using the WIN32
internals that this patch relies on.  I am not sure that this
suggestion is right, though, because we should still care about the
clock skew case as written in the surrounding comments?  Even if
that's OK, I would assume that this should be an independent patch,
written on top of the proposed v6-0001.

Tom, could you comment about that?  Perhaps my notes did not catch
what you meant.
--
Michael

  28. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2024-06-06T07:45:00Z

    At Tue, 4 Jun 2024 08:30:19 +0900, Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> wrote in 
> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 01:34:46PM -0500, Robert Haas wrote:
> > This kind of change looks massively helpful to me. I don't know if it
> > is exactly right or not, but it would have been a big help to me when
> > writing my previous review, so +1 for some change of this general
> > type.
> 
> During a live review of this patch last week, as part of the Advanced
> Patch Workshop of pgconf.dev, it has been mentioned by Tom that we may
> be able to simplify the check on pmstart if the detection of the
> postmaster PID started by pg_ctl is more stable using the WIN32
> internals that this patch relies on.  I am not sure that this
> suggestion is right, though, because we should still care about the
> clock skew case as written in the surrounding comments?  Even if
> that's OK, I would assume that this should be an independent patch,
> written on top of the proposed v6-0001.
> 
> Tom, could you comment about that?  Perhaps my notes did not catch
> what you meant.

Thank you for the follow-up.

I have been thinking about this since then. At first, I thought it
referred to FindFirstChangeNotification() and friends, and inotify on
Linux. However, I haven't found a way to simplify the specified code
area using those APIs.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  29. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2024-06-06T08:15:15Z

    At Thu, 06 Jun 2024 16:45:00 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> I have been thinking about this since then. At first, I thought it
> referred to FindFirstChangeNotification() and friends, and inotify on
> Linux. However, I haven't found a way to simplify the specified code
> area using those APIs.

By the way, the need to shift by 2 seconds to tolerate clock skew
suggests that the current launcher-postmaster association mechanism is
somewhat unreliable. Couldn't we add a command line option to
postmaster to explicitly pass a unique identifier (say, pid itself) of
the launcher? If it is not specified, the number should be the PID of
the immediate parent process.

This change avoids the need for the special treatment for Windows.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  30. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> — 2024-06-06T08:21:46Z

    At Thu, 06 Jun 2024 17:15:15 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> At Thu, 06 Jun 2024 16:45:00 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> > I have been thinking about this since then. At first, I thought it
> > referred to FindFirstChangeNotification() and friends, and inotify on
> > Linux. However, I haven't found a way to simplify the specified code
> > area using those APIs.
> 
> By the way, the need to shift by 2 seconds to tolerate clock skew
> suggests that the current launcher-postmaster association mechanism is
> somewhat unreliable. Couldn't we add a command line option to
> postmaster to explicitly pass a unique identifier (say, pid itself) of
> the launcher? If it is not specified, the number should be the PID of
> the immediate parent process.

No. The combination of pg_ctl's pid and timestamp, to avoid false
matching during reboot.

> This change avoids the need for the special treatment for Windows.

regards.

-- 
Kyotaro Horiguchi
NTT Open Source Software Center

  31. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Andrew Dunstan <andrew@dunslane.net> — 2024-06-06T19:03:41Z

    On 2024-06-06 Th 04:15, Kyotaro Horiguchi wrote:
> At Thu, 06 Jun 2024 16:45:00 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in
>> I have been thinking about this since then. At first, I thought it
>> referred to FindFirstChangeNotification() and friends, and inotify on
>> Linux. However, I haven't found a way to simplify the specified code
>> area using those APIs.
> By the way, the need to shift by 2 seconds to tolerate clock skew
> suggests that the current launcher-postmaster association mechanism is
> somewhat unreliable. Couldn't we add a command line option to
> postmaster to explicitly pass a unique identifier (say, pid itself) of
> the launcher? If it is not specified, the number should be the PID of
> the immediate parent process.
>
> This change avoids the need for the special treatment for Windows.
>

Looks good generally. I assume iterating over the process table to find 
the right pid will be pretty quick.


cheers


andrew

--
Andrew Dunstan
EDB: https://www.enterprisedb.com

  32. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Noah Misch <noah@leadboat.com> — 2024-06-30T02:12:11Z

    On Thu, Jun 06, 2024 at 05:21:46PM +0900, Kyotaro Horiguchi wrote:
> At Thu, 06 Jun 2024 17:15:15 +0900 (JST), Kyotaro Horiguchi <horikyota.ntt@gmail.com> wrote in 
> > By the way, the need to shift by 2 seconds to tolerate clock skew
> > suggests that the current launcher-postmaster association mechanism is
> > somewhat unreliable. Couldn't we add a command line option to
> > postmaster to explicitly pass a unique identifier (say, pid itself) of
> > the launcher? If it is not specified, the number should be the PID of
> > the immediate parent process.
> 
> No. The combination of pg_ctl's pid and timestamp, to avoid false
> matching during reboot.
> 
> > This change avoids the need for the special treatment for Windows.

Regarding your "unique identifier" idea, pg_ctl could generate an 8-byte
random value for the postmaster to write to postmaster.pid.  That would be
enough for wait_for_postmaster_start() to ignore PIDs and achieve its mission
without OS-specific code.

Commits 9886744 and b83747a added /D to two %comspec% callers.  I gather they
arose to make particular cmd.exe invocations have just one child.  However,
http://postgr.es/m/20240111.173322.1809044112677090191.horikyota.ntt@gmail.com
reports multiple children remain possible.  v17 is currently in a weird state
where most Windows subprocess invocation routes through pgwin32_system() and
does not add /D, while these two callers add /D.  I suspect we should either
(1) prepend /D in pgwin32_system() and other %comspec% usage or (2) revert
prepending it in the callers from this thread's commits.  While
"Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\AutoRun" is hard to use without breaking
things, it's not PostgreSQL's job to second-guess the user in that respect.
Hence, I lean toward (2).  What do you think?

  33. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-07-05T05:19:54Z

    On Sat, Jun 29, 2024 at 07:12:11PM -0700, Noah Misch wrote:
> Commits 9886744 and b83747a added /D to two %comspec% callers.  I gather they
> arose to make particular cmd.exe invocations have just one child.  However,
> http://postgr.es/m/20240111.173322.1809044112677090191.horikyota.ntt@gmail.com
> reports multiple children remain possible.  v17 is currently in a weird state
> where most Windows subprocess invocation routes through pgwin32_system() and
> does not add /D, while these two callers add /D.  I suspect we should either
> (1) prepend /D in pgwin32_system() and other %comspec% usage or (2) revert
> prepending it in the callers from this thread's commits.  While
> "Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\AutoRun" is hard to use without breaking
> things, it's not PostgreSQL's job to second-guess the user in that respect.
> Hence, I lean toward (2).  What do you think?

Thanks for the ping.

As of this stage of the game for v17, I am going to agree with (2) to
remove this inconsistency rather than experiment with new things.  We
could always study more in v18 what could be done with the /D switches
and the other patch, though that will unlikely be something I'll be
able to look at in the short term.
--
Michael

  34. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-07-08T00:58:10Z

    On Fri, Jul 05, 2024 at 02:19:54PM +0900, Michael Paquier wrote:
> As of this stage of the game for v17, I am going to agree with (2) to
> remove this inconsistency rather than experiment with new things.  We
> could always study more in v18 what could be done with the /D switches
> and the other patch, though that will unlikely be something I'll be
> able to look at in the short term.

As I am not tempted to play the apprentice sorcerer on a stable
branch, just reverted these two things with 74b8e6a69802, and
backpatched the change down to 17.
--
Michael

  35. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Sutou Kouhei <kou@clear-code.com> — 2024-07-12T21:41:14Z

    Hi,

I'm reviewing patches in Commitfest 2024-07 from top to bottom:
https://commitfest.postgresql.org/48/

This is the 2st patch:
https://commitfest.postgresql.org/48/4573/

FYI: https://commitfest.postgresql.org/48/4681/ is my patch.

In <Zl5SC_kboY7i0AS8@paquier.xyz>
  "Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows" on Tue, 4 Jun 2024 08:30:19 +0900,
  Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> wrote:

> During a live review of this patch last week, as part of the Advanced
> Patch Workshop of pgconf.dev, it has been mentioned by Tom that we may
> be able to simplify the check on pmstart if the detection of the
> postmaster PID started by pg_ctl is more stable using the WIN32
> internals that this patch relies on.  I am not sure that this
> suggestion is right, though, because we should still care about the
> clock skew case as written in the surrounding comments?  Even if
> that's OK, I would assume that this should be an independent patch,
> written on top of the proposed v6-0001.

I reviewed the latest patch set and I felt different
impression.

start_postmaster() on Windows uses cmd.exe for redirection
based on the comment in the function:

> /*
>  * As with the Unix case, it's easiest to use the shell (CMD.EXE) to
>  * handle redirection etc.  Unfortunately CMD.EXE lacks any equivalent of
>  * "exec", so we don't get to find out the postmaster's PID immediately.
>  */

It seems that we can use redirection by CreateProcess()
family functions without cmd.exe based on the following
documentation:

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/procthread/creating-a-child-process-with-redirected-input-and-output

How about changing start_postmaster() for Windows to start
postgres.exe directly so that it returns the postgres.exe's
PID not cmd.exe's PID? If we can do it, we don't need
pgwin32_find_postmaster_pid() in the patch set.


Thanks,
-- 
kou

  36. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> — 2024-07-16T11:57:37Z

    The following review has been posted through the commitfest application:
make installcheck-world:  tested, failed
Implements feature:       tested, failed
Spec compliant:           not tested
Documentation:            not tested

Hi,

I have verified following: 
  - Bug exits in PG17. I also checked it in PG16 but it does not exits there. 
  - After applying your patch, I can confirm that bug get fixed. 
  - no regression found. I ran "meson test".
  - I would like to suggest you that #includes should be included at appropriate location keeping the #includes alphabetically sorted, what I observed in the PG code as a standard:
    Your patch:
    #include <versionhelpers.h>
    #include <tlhelp32.h>

    It should be like:
    #include <tlhelp32.h>
    #include <versionhelpers.h>

Regards...


Yasir Hussain
Bitnine Global Inc.

  37. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> — 2024-07-16T12:04:31Z

    On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 4:58 PM Yasir Shah <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The following review has been posted through the commitfest application:
> make installcheck-world:  tested, failed         (meson test, passed)
> Implements feature:       tested, failed            (tested, passed)
> Spec compliant:           not tested                   (tested, passed
> with suggestion)
> Documentation:            not tested
>

Please ignore the above 4 lines in my review. See my comments in blue.


> Hi,
>
> I have verified following:
>   - Bug exits in PG17. I also checked it in PG16 but it does not exits
> there.
>   - After applying your patch, I can confirm that bug get fixed.
>   - no regression found. I ran "meson test".
>   - I would like to suggest you that #includes should be included at
> appropriate location keeping the #includes alphabetically sorted, what I
> observed in the PG code as a standard:
>     Your patch:
>     #include <versionhelpers.h>
>     #include <tlhelp32.h>
>
>     It should be like:
>     #include <tlhelp32.h>
>     #include <versionhelpers.h>
>
> Regards...
>
>
> Yasir Hussain
> Bitnine Global Inc.

  38. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> — 2024-07-19T18:32:47Z

    On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 8:04 AM Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please ignore the above 4 lines in my review. See my comments in blue.

OK, so I think it's unclear what the next steps are for this patch.

1. On June 3rd, Michael Paquier said that Tom Lane proposed that,
after doing what the patch currently does, we could simplify some
other stuff. The details are unclear, and Tom hasn't commented.

2. On June 29th, Noah Misch proposed a platform-independent way of
solving the problem.

3. On July 12th, Sutou Kouhei proposed using CreateProcess() to start
the postmaster instead of cmd.exe.

4. On July 16th, Yasir Shah said that he tested the patch and found
that the problem only exists in v17, not any prior release, which is
contrary to my understanding of the situation. He also proposed a
minor tweak to the patch itself.

So, as I see it, we have three possible ways forward here. First, we
could stick with the current patch, possibly with further work as per
[1] or adjustments as per [4]. Second, we could abandon the current
approach and adopt Noah's proposal in [2]. Third, we could possibly
abandon the current approach and adopt Sutou's proposal in [3]. I say
"possibly" because I can't personally assess whether this approach is
feasible.

I have some bias toward thinking that real patches are better than
imaginary ones, and that we ought to therefore think about committing
Horiguchi-san's actual patch to fix the actual problem rather than
worrying much about other hypothetical things that we could do. On the
other hand, I'm also not volunteering, among other reasons because I
am not knowledgeable enough about Windows. And, certainly, there is
some appeal to a platform-independent approach. But I feel like we're
not doing ourselves any favors by letting this patch sit for (checks
thread) 10 months when according to multiple reviewers, it works.

-- 
Robert Haas
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com

  39. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    vignesh C <vignesh21@gmail.com> — 2025-03-26T08:18:28Z

    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 at 00:03, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 8:04 AM Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please ignore the above 4 lines in my review. See my comments in blue.
>
> OK, so I think it's unclear what the next steps are for this patch.
>
> 1. On June 3rd, Michael Paquier said that Tom Lane proposed that,
> after doing what the patch currently does, we could simplify some
> other stuff. The details are unclear, and Tom hasn't commented.
>
> 2. On June 29th, Noah Misch proposed a platform-independent way of
> solving the problem.
>
> 3. On July 12th, Sutou Kouhei proposed using CreateProcess() to start
> the postmaster instead of cmd.exe.
>
> 4. On July 16th, Yasir Shah said that he tested the patch and found
> that the problem only exists in v17, not any prior release, which is
> contrary to my understanding of the situation. He also proposed a
> minor tweak to the patch itself.
>
> So, as I see it, we have three possible ways forward here. First, we
> could stick with the current patch, possibly with further work as per
> [1] or adjustments as per [4]. Second, we could abandon the current
> approach and adopt Noah's proposal in [2]. Third, we could possibly
> abandon the current approach and adopt Sutou's proposal in [3]. I say
> "possibly" because I can't personally assess whether this approach is
> feasible.

Thank you very much, Robert, for summarizing this. If anyone has
suggestions on which approach might work best, please share them to
help move this discussion forward.

Regards,
Vignesh

  40. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Bryan Green <dbryan.green@gmail.com> — 2025-10-24T04:02:50Z

    On 3/26/2025 3:18 AM, vignesh C wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 at 00:03, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 8:04 AM Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Please ignore the above 4 lines in my review. See my comments in blue.
>>
>> OK, so I think it's unclear what the next steps are for this patch.
>>
>> 1. On June 3rd, Michael Paquier said that Tom Lane proposed that,
>> after doing what the patch currently does, we could simplify some
>> other stuff. The details are unclear, and Tom hasn't commented.
>>
>> 2. On June 29th, Noah Misch proposed a platform-independent way of
>> solving the problem.
>>
>> 3. On July 12th, Sutou Kouhei proposed using CreateProcess() to start
>> the postmaster instead of cmd.exe.
>>
>> 4. On July 16th, Yasir Shah said that he tested the patch and found
>> that the problem only exists in v17, not any prior release, which is
>> contrary to my understanding of the situation. He also proposed a
>> minor tweak to the patch itself.
>>
>> So, as I see it, we have three possible ways forward here. First, we
>> could stick with the current patch, possibly with further work as per
>> [1] or adjustments as per [4]. Second, we could abandon the current
>> approach and adopt Noah's proposal in [2]. Third, we could possibly
>> abandon the current approach and adopt Sutou's proposal in [3]. I say
>> "possibly" because I can't personally assess whether this approach is
>> feasible.
> 
> Thank you very much, Robert, for summarizing this. If anyone has
> suggestions on which approach might work best, please share them to
> help move this discussion forward.
> 
> Regards,
> Vignesh
> 
> 
Hello everyone,

I've spent the last few days implementing Sutou-san's CreateProcess() 
proposal as a proof-of-concept. With all three approaches now available 
for comparison, I wanted to share my assessment and recommendation.

The core issue, as we've established, is that cmd.exe intermediation 
prevents pg_ctl from getting the real postgres.exe PID, creating race 
conditions where we can't distinguish a newly-started postmaster from a 
pre-existing one. This causes pg_ctl start to incorrectly report success 
when attempting to start an already-running cluster.

Horiguchi-san's process tree walking patch works and is ready to ship. 
It has real merit as a minimal-change solution. However, it keeps 
cmd.exe and adds process enumeration complexity to work around that 
decision. We're fixing symptoms rather than the root cause.

Noah's token proposal is architecturally elegant and 
platform-independent. My concern is that it solves a Windows-specific 
problem by adding complexity to all platforms. Making other platforms 
adopt token-passing infrastructure for Windows's problems feels wrong. 
It also requires postmaster changes for what is fundamentally a pg_ctl 
issue, raising compatibility questions.

The CreateProcess() approach eliminates cmd.exe entirely and gives us 
the actual postgres.exe PID directly. I've implemented this in the 
attached patch (about 250 lines of Windows-specific code). The 
implementation uses CreateProcessAsUser() with a restricted security 
token to handle the case where pg_ctl runs with elevated privileges—this 
drops Administrator group membership and dangerous privileges before 
launching the postmaster, matching the behavior of the existing 
CreateRestrictedProcess() function.

For I/O redirection, we use Windows's native handle-based APIs. When a 
log file is specified, we open it with CreateFile() and pass it through 
STARTUPINFO. When there's no log file (interactive use and postgres -C 
queries), we inherit standard handles. One detail worth noting: we wait 
2 seconds for no-log-file launches to distinguish postgres -C (which 
exits immediately) from actual server startup. This is long enough to 
catch quick exits even on loaded CI systems without impacting test suite 
performance.

The implementation passes all regression tests on Windows, including CI 
environments with elevated privileges. It handles all the problem 
scenarios correctly: normal startup, detecting already-running clusters, 
postgres -C queries, pg_upgrade with multiple instances, and concurrent 
start attempts.

I prefer the CreateProcess() approach. It fixes the root cause, not the 
symptoms. We get the real PID immediately with no process tree walking 
or PID verification complexity. It's a Windows-specific solution to a 
Windows-specific problem.

If the CreateProcess() approach is deemed unacceptable, I would support 
Horiguchi-san's process tree walking patch as a pragmatic fallback. It 
fixes the bug and is tested. However, I believe we'd be choosing a 
workaround over a proper fix and adding maintenance burden we don't need.

I'm opposed to the token approach for the reasons stated above—it's 
architecturally appealing but touches all platforms for a Windows-only 
problem.

With this implementation complete, we now have all three options on the 
table for evaluation. I believe the CreateProcess() approach is 
technically sound and the right path forward, but I'm open to discussion 
and happy to address any concerns about the implementation.

Regardless of which way we choose to go, I'll happily help review and 
test the solution.

Best regards,
BG

  41. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Bryan Green <dbryan.green@gmail.com> — 2025-10-24T06:02:47Z

    On 10/23/2025 11:02 PM, Bryan Green wrote:
> On 3/26/2025 3:18 AM, vignesh C wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 at 00:03, Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 8:04 AM Yasir <yasir.hussain.shah@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> Please ignore the above 4 lines in my review. See my comments in blue.
>>>
>>> OK, so I think it's unclear what the next steps are for this patch.
>>>
>>> 1. On June 3rd, Michael Paquier said that Tom Lane proposed that,
>>> after doing what the patch currently does, we could simplify some
>>> other stuff. The details are unclear, and Tom hasn't commented.
>>>
>>> 2. On June 29th, Noah Misch proposed a platform-independent way of
>>> solving the problem.
>>>
>>> 3. On July 12th, Sutou Kouhei proposed using CreateProcess() to start
>>> the postmaster instead of cmd.exe.
>>>
>>> 4. On July 16th, Yasir Shah said that he tested the patch and found
>>> that the problem only exists in v17, not any prior release, which is
>>> contrary to my understanding of the situation. He also proposed a
>>> minor tweak to the patch itself.
>>>
>>> So, as I see it, we have three possible ways forward here. First, we
>>> could stick with the current patch, possibly with further work as per
>>> [1] or adjustments as per [4]. Second, we could abandon the current
>>> approach and adopt Noah's proposal in [2]. Third, we could possibly
>>> abandon the current approach and adopt Sutou's proposal in [3]. I say
>>> "possibly" because I can't personally assess whether this approach is
>>> feasible.
>>
>> Thank you very much, Robert, for summarizing this. If anyone has
>> suggestions on which approach might work best, please share them to
>> help move this discussion forward.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vignesh
>>
>>
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've spent the last few days implementing Sutou-san's CreateProcess() 
> proposal as a proof-of-concept. With all three approaches now available 
> for comparison, I wanted to share my assessment and recommendation.
> 
> The core issue, as we've established, is that cmd.exe intermediation 
> prevents pg_ctl from getting the real postgres.exe PID, creating race 
> conditions where we can't distinguish a newly-started postmaster from a 
> pre-existing one. This causes pg_ctl start to incorrectly report success 
> when attempting to start an already-running cluster.
> 
> Horiguchi-san's process tree walking patch works and is ready to ship. 
> It has real merit as a minimal-change solution. However, it keeps 
> cmd.exe and adds process enumeration complexity to work around that 
> decision. We're fixing symptoms rather than the root cause.
> 
> Noah's token proposal is architecturally elegant and platform- 
> independent. My concern is that it solves a Windows-specific problem by 
> adding complexity to all platforms. Making other platforms adopt token- 
> passing infrastructure for Windows's problems feels wrong. It also 
> requires postmaster changes for what is fundamentally a pg_ctl issue, 
> raising compatibility questions.
> 
> The CreateProcess() approach eliminates cmd.exe entirely and gives us 
> the actual postgres.exe PID directly. I've implemented this in the 
> attached patch (about 250 lines of Windows-specific code). The 
> implementation uses CreateProcessAsUser() with a restricted security 
> token to handle the case where pg_ctl runs with elevated privileges—this 
> drops Administrator group membership and dangerous privileges before 
> launching the postmaster, matching the behavior of the existing 
> CreateRestrictedProcess() function.
> 
> For I/O redirection, we use Windows's native handle-based APIs. When a 
> log file is specified, we open it with CreateFile() and pass it through 
> STARTUPINFO. When there's no log file (interactive use and postgres -C 
> queries), we inherit standard handles. One detail worth noting: we wait 
> 2 seconds for no-log-file launches to distinguish postgres -C (which 
> exits immediately) from actual server startup. This is long enough to 
> catch quick exits even on loaded CI systems without impacting test suite 
> performance.
> 
> The implementation passes all regression tests on Windows, including CI 
> environments with elevated privileges. It handles all the problem 
> scenarios correctly: normal startup, detecting already-running clusters, 
> postgres -C queries, pg_upgrade with multiple instances, and concurrent 
> start attempts.
> 
> I prefer the CreateProcess() approach. It fixes the root cause, not the 
> symptoms. We get the real PID immediately with no process tree walking 
> or PID verification complexity. It's a Windows-specific solution to a 
> Windows-specific problem.
> 
> If the CreateProcess() approach is deemed unacceptable, I would support 
> Horiguchi-san's process tree walking patch as a pragmatic fallback. It 
> fixes the bug and is tested. However, I believe we'd be choosing a 
> workaround over a proper fix and adding maintenance burden we don't need.
> 
> I'm opposed to the token approach for the reasons stated above—it's 
> architecturally appealing but touches all platforms for a Windows-only 
> problem.
> 
> With this implementation complete, we now have all three options on the 
> table for evaluation. I believe the CreateProcess() approach is 
> technically sound and the right path forward, but I'm open to discussion 
> and happy to address any concerns about the implementation.
> 
> Regardless of which way we choose to go, I'll happily help review and 
> test the solution.
> 
> Best regards,
> BG

I realized the patch had an issue after sending.  Here is the updated 
patch. Again, this patch is just for an example of Sutou-san's suggestion.

  42. Re: pg_ctl start may return 0 even if the postmaster has been already started on Windows

    Álvaro Herrera <alvherre@kurilemu.de> — 2026-02-02T13:28:36Z

    Hello,

Somebody seems to have trimmed the CC field upthread for no apparent
reason.  I put it back the way I think it was when that happened.

Here's a rebased version of this patch.  This is pretty much just
Bryan's patch, which I agree is a good way forward, though perhaps not
very backpatchable.  I suspect we need to consider this one for mastern
only, and use a less intrusive version for backpatching -- perhaps
Kyotaro's earlier version.

Regarding this patch, I haven't really reviewed it -- but I wonder why
we need two global variables to keep postmaster's PID: the newly
introduced pm_pid (which was previously a local variable only) and the
preexisting postmasterPID.  I suspect this needs to be cleaned up.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera        Breisgau, Deutschland  —  https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/
"Los minutos y los segundos son mercadería de la ciudad, donde un infeliz se
afana por no perder ni siquiera un segundo y no advierto que obrando de ese
modo pierde una vida."              ("La vuelta de Don Camilo", G. Guareschi)