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  1. Fix typo in documentation of toast storage

  1. typo

    The Post Office <noreply@postgresql.org> — 2018-11-26T00:47:51Z

    The following documentation comment has been logged on the website:

Page: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/storage-file-layout.html
Description:

I think I found a typo in the manuals in the below sentence. I have
highlighted the correction within double quotes (") and UPPERCASE text. Does
it sound right ?


URL: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/11/storage-file-layout.html

Typo: A table that has columns with potentially large entries will have an
associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of field
values that are too large to keep in the table rows proper

Correction: A table that has columns with potentially large entries will
have an associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of
field values that are too large to keep in the table rows "PROPERLY".

  2. Re: typo

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2018-11-26T06:56:43Z

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 12:47:51AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
> Correction: A table that has columns with potentially large entries will
> have an associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of
> field values that are too large to keep in the table rows "PROPERLY".

Thanks, committed.  I have fixed the docs to reflect your suggestion.
--
Michael

  3. Re: typo

    Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> — 2018-11-26T07:03:19Z

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 07:56 Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 12:47:51AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
> > Correction: A table that has columns with potentially large entries will
> > have an associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of
> > field values that are too large to keep in the table rows "PROPERLY".
>
> Thanks, committed.  I have fixed the docs to reflect your suggestion.
> -
>


Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?

/Magnus

>

  4. Re: typo

    Vik Fearing <vik.fearing@2ndquadrant.com> — 2018-11-26T07:17:06Z

    On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018, 07:56 Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz
> <mailto:michael@paquier.xyz> wrote:
> 
>     On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 12:47:51AM +0000, PG Doc comments form wrote:
>     > Correction: A table that has columns with potentially large
>     entries will
>     > have an associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line
>     storage of
>     > field values that are too large to keep in the table rows "PROPERLY".
> 
>     Thanks, committed.  I have fixed the docs to reflect your suggestion.
>     -
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not? 

Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with the
change as well.
-- 
Vik Fearing                                          +33 6 46 75 15 36
http://2ndQuadrant.fr     PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support

  5. Re: typo

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2018-11-26T07:42:38Z

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
> On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
>> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?
>
> Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with the
> change as well.

[... checking around ...]
Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here because
it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just trying to
grab the difference.
--
Michael

  6. Re: typo

    Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net> — 2018-11-26T09:35:47Z

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 8:42 AM Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
> > On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> >> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
> >> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?
> >
> > Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with the
> > change as well.
>
> [... checking around ...]
> Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
> before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
> adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here because
> it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just trying to
> grab the difference.
>

If the current text is unclear to people we should definitely fix it --
just to the right thing.

Maybe say something like "keep inline in the regular table rows" instead?

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: https://www.hagander.net/ <http://www.hagander.net/>
 Work: https://www.redpill-linpro.com/ <http://www.redpill-linpro.com/>

  7. Re: typo

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2018-11-26T14:14:18Z

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
>> On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
>>> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?

>> Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with the
>> change as well.

> [... checking around ...]
> Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
> before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
> adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here because
> it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just trying to
> grab the difference.

I think that text is mine originally, and it was not a typo.  The meaning
of "table rows proper", in this case, is basically "table rows themelves".
The first dictionary I looked at gives this example:

PROPER
Adjective [ chiefly British ]
  ... [ postpositive ] Strictly so called; in its true form.
  "some of the dos and don'ts in espionage proper"

But I can see that a lot of people might not be familiar with that usage,
so I've got no objections to rewriting it more clearly --- any
suggestions?

			regards, tom lane

  8. Re: typo

    Vik Fearing <vik.fearing@2ndquadrant.com> — 2018-11-26T14:29:25Z

    On 26/11/2018 15:14, Tom Lane wrote:
> Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>>> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that sentence
>>>> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?
> 
>>> Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with the
>>> change as well.
> 
>> [... checking around ...]
>> Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
>> before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
>> adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here because
>> it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just trying to
>> grab the difference.
> 
> I think that text is mine originally, and it was not a typo.  The meaning
> of "table rows proper", in this case, is basically "table rows themelves".
> The first dictionary I looked at gives this example:
> 
> PROPER
> Adjective [ chiefly British ]
>   ... [ postpositive ] Strictly so called; in its true form.
>   "some of the dos and don'ts in espionage proper"
> 
> But I can see that a lot of people might not be familiar with that usage,
> so I've got no objections to rewriting it more clearly --- any
> suggestions?

How about

  A table that has columns with potentially large entries will have an
  associated TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of field
- values that are too large to keep in the table rows proper.
+ values that are too large to keep in the main table storage.

-- 
Vik Fearing                                          +33 6 46 75 15 36
http://2ndQuadrant.fr     PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support

  9. Re: typo

    Erik Rijkers <er@xs4all.nl> — 2018-11-26T14:34:43Z

    On 2018-11-26 15:14, Tom Lane wrote:
> Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>>> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that 
>>>> sentence
>>>> seems to convey the message properly, and the update done does not?
> 
>>> Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with 
>>> the
>>> change as well.
> 
>> [... checking around ...]
>> Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
>> before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
>> adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here 
>> because
>> it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just trying to
>> grab the difference.
> 
> I think that text is mine originally, and it was not a typo.  The 
> meaning
> of "table rows proper", in this case, is basically "table rows 
> themelves".

Maybe that is not a bad alternative
    "table rows themselves"

Even if that sounds slightly less idiomatic than the original, I think 
it'd be less of a stumbling block for non-native readers.

  10. RE: typo

    Ahmed, Nawaz <nawaz@fast.au.fujitsu.com> — 2018-11-27T01:24:36Z

    I think "table rows themselves" makes sense. I came up with another alternative as below, as long as it does not change the message, the sentence is trying to convey.

"TOAST table, which is used for out-of-line storage of field values that are too large to keep [or, be kept] within the original table."


Best Regards,

Nawaz Ahmed
Software Development Engineer

Fujitsu Australia Software Technology Pty Ltd
14 Rodborough Road, Frenchs Forest NSW 2086, Australia
T +61 2 9452 9027
Nawaz@fast.au.fujitsu.com
fastware.com.au





-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Rijkers [mailto:er@xs4all.nl]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2018 1:35 AM
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
Cc: Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz>; Vik Fearing <vik.fearing@2ndquadrant.com>; Magnus Hagander <magnus@hagander.net>; Ahmed, Nawaz <Nawaz@fast.au.fujitsu.com>; pgsql-docs@lists.postgresql.org
Subject: Re: typo

On 2018-11-26 15:14, Tom Lane wrote:
> Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> writes:
>> On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 08:17:06AM +0100, Vik Fearing wrote:
>>> On 26/11/2018 08:03, Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>>> Are you sure that's right? To me the original wording of that
>>>> sentence seems to convey the message properly, and the update done
>>>> does not?
>
>>> Yeah, I just found this on the committers list and I disagree with
>>> the change as well.
>
>> [... checking around ...]
>> Hm.  I have read the sentence and the surroundings a couple of times
>> before doing anything, and using an adverb looked clearer than the
>> adjective.  Is an adjective more appropriate than an adverb here
>> because it insists more on the fact that each row is involved?  Just
>> trying to grab the difference.
>
> I think that text is mine originally, and it was not a typo.  The
> meaning of "table rows proper", in this case, is basically "table rows
> themelves".

Maybe that is not a bad alternative
    "table rows themselves"

Even if that sounds slightly less idiomatic than the original, I think it'd be less of a stumbling block for non-native readers.







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  11. Re: typo

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2018-11-27T01:35:01Z

    On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 09:14:18AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote:
> But I can see that a lot of people might not be familiar with that usage,
> so I've got no objections to rewriting it more clearly --- any
> suggestions?

It has been suggested upthread to use "in the table rows themselves",
which does not sound bad to me.  So that would give, quoting the whole
portion:
 A table that has columns with potentially large entries will have an
  associated <firstterm>TOAST</firstterm> table, which is used for
 out-of-line storage of
 -field values that are too large to keep in the table rows properly.
 +field values that are too large to keep in the table rows themselves.
  <structname>pg_class</structname>.<structfield>reltoastrelid</structfield>
 links from a table to
  its <acronym>TOAST</acronym> table, if any.

Now I cannot really stand as somebody able to decide the right thing on
this thread, proofs present on the table ;)
--
Michael