Thread

Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-18T04:34:42Z

Hi, 

Something is pretty broken in redhat 7.3 but I'm not sure what and I
don't have time to dig further

masm@test=# select cast('1967-04-18' as timestamptz);
      timestamptz
------------------------
 1967-04-17 18:00:00-06
(1 row)

masm@test=# select cast(cast('1967-04-18' as date) as timestamp);
ERROR:  Unable to convert date to tm
masm@test=#

Both cases works correctly in Redhat 7.2. Sorry if this is not the
correct forum however an alert is nice for people planning an Redhat
upgrade. I hope to see pretty soon an update since I don't want to
downgrade my server.

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-20T17:58:12Z

On Saturday 18 May 2002 12:34 am, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> Something is pretty broken in redhat 7.3 but I'm not sure what and I
> don't have time to dig further

> Both cases works correctly in Redhat 7.2. Sorry if this is not the
> correct forum however an alert is nice for people planning an Redhat
> upgrade. I hope to see pretty soon an update since I don't want to
> downgrade my server.

Filed on Red Hat's Bugzilla system as bug# 65227, as I can reliably reporoduce 
this bug here, and PostgreSQL 7.2.1 on Red Hat 6.2 on SPARC does not exhibit 
the bug.

Tom (or Thomas):

Where would we go to ferret out the source of this bug?  More to the point: we 
need a test case in C that could expose this as a glibc bug.  Methinks Red 
Hat would want this bug ferretted out, as it would likely cause problems with 
RedHat Database on RH 7.3's glibc.....
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-20T18:22:14Z

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:

> Filed on Red Hat's Bugzilla system as bug# 65227, as I can reliably
> reporoduce this bug here, and PostgreSQL 7.2.1 on Red Hat 6.2 on
> SPARC does not exhibit the bug.

Thanks for filling that report. I couldn't remember what had forgotten
;-)

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-21T00:08:07Z

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:

> Where would we go to ferret out the source of this bug?  More to the
> point: we need a test case in C that could expose this as a glibc
> bug.  

Seems like mktime(3) is having problems with dates before the
epoch. Attached is the a program to test this. The glibc source is now
downloading I will try to hunt down this bug but not until the next
week.

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-21T03:12:21Z

On Monday 20 May 2002 08:08 pm, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> > Where would we go to ferret out the source of this bug?  More to the
> > point: we need a test case in C that could expose this as a glibc
> > bug.

> Seems like mktime(3) is having problems with dates before the
> epoch. Attached is the a program to test this. The glibc source is now
> downloading I will try to hunt down this bug but not until the next
> week.

It's not a bug.  At least not according to the ISO C standard.  See 
http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/basedefs/xbd_chap04.html#tag_04_14 
for the definition of 'Seconds Since the Epoch', then cross-reference to the 
man page of mktime.

I don't like it any more than you do, but that is the letter of the standard.  

Thomas, any comments?

Our implementation is broken, then.  Thomas, is this fixable for a 7.2.x 
release, or something for 7.3?
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-21T13:30:06Z

...
> Our implementation is broken, then.  Thomas, is this fixable for a 7.2.x
> release, or something for 7.3?

"Our implementation is broken, then" is really not a conclusion to be
reached. The de facto behavior of mktime() on all world-class
implementations is to support pre-1970 times. This has been true forever
afaik, certainly far longer than PostgreSQL (or Postgres) has been in
existance.

Any standard which chooses to ignore pre-1970 dates is fundamentally
broken imho, and I'm really ticked off that the glibc folks have so
glibly introduced a change of this nature and magnitude without further
discussion.

                         - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-21T15:04:00Z

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> writes:

> On Monday 20 May 2002 08:08 pm, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> > > Where would we go to ferret out the source of this bug?  More to the
> > > point: we need a test case in C that could expose this as a glibc
> > > bug.
> 
> > Seems like mktime(3) is having problems with dates before the
> > epoch. Attached is the a program to test this. The glibc source is now
> > downloading I will try to hunt down this bug but not until the next
> > week.
> 
> It's not a bug.  At least not according to the ISO C standard.  See
> http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007904975/basedefs/xbd_chap04.html#tag_04_14
> for the definition of 'Seconds Since the Epoch', then
> cross-reference to the man page of mktime.

I see. This behavior is consistent with the fact that mktime is
supposed to return -1 on error, but then is broken in every other Unix
implementation that I know.

Any other workaround than downgrade or install FreeBSD?

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-21T16:29:45Z

On Tuesday 21 May 2002 11:04 am, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> I see. This behavior is consistent with the fact that mktime is
> supposed to return -1 on error, but then is broken in every other Unix
> implementation that I know.

> Any other workaround than downgrade or install FreeBSD?

Complain to Red Hat.  Loudly. However, as this is a glibc change, other 
distributors are very likely to fold in this change sooner rather than later.

Try using timestamp without timezone?
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> — 2002-05-21T16:31:14Z

On Tue, 21 May 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:

> On Tuesday 21 May 2002 11:04 am, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> > I see. This behavior is consistent with the fact that mktime is
> > supposed to return -1 on error, but then is broken in every other Unix
> > implementation that I know.
> 
> > Any other workaround than downgrade or install FreeBSD?
> 
> Complain to Red Hat.  Loudly. However, as this is a glibc change, other 
> distributors are very likely to fold in this change sooner rather than 
> later. 

Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a 
glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at 
it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.

-- 
Trond Eivind Glomsrød
Red Hat, Inc.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-21T17:24:41Z

On Tuesday 21 May 2002 12:31 pm, Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > However, as this is a glibc change, other
> > distributors are very likely to fold in this change sooner rather than
> > later.

> Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a
> glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at
> it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.

In your opinion.  Not everyone agrees with the new glibc behavior.  In fact, 
some here are rather livid about it.  But that's a digression.  The matter at 
hand is making it work right again.  

It seems to me someone should have thought about this before making the glibc 
change that had the potential for breaking a large application -- regardless 
of who is at fault, it's egg in Red Hat's face for not catching it sooner 
(and egg in my face as well, as I must admit that I of all people should have 
caught this earlier).  

Is the change in glibc behavior noted in the release notes?  The man page 
isn't changed either, from Red Hat 6.2, in fact.  The only change is adhering 
to the ISO definition of 'Seconds Since the Epoch' rather than the defacto 
industry-accepted definition that has been with us a very long time.  

Like PostgreSQL's refusal to upgrade in a sane manner, this should have 
received release notes billing, IMHO.  Then I, nor anyone else, could 
reasonably complain.

But this does show the need for the regression testing packge, no? :-) And it 
also shows the danger in becoming too familiar with certain regression tests 
failing due to locale -- to the extent that a locale issue was the first 
thing thought of.  To the extent that I'm going to change my build process to 
include regression testing as a part of the build -- and any failure will 
abort the build. Maybe that will get my attention.  And anyone else's 
rebuilding from the source RPM.  SuSE already does this.  I wonder how 
they've handled this issue with 8.0? 

In any case, this isn't just a Red Hat problem, as it's going to cause 
problems with the use of timestamps on ANY glibc 2.2.5 dist.  That's more 
than Red Hat, by a large margin.

And I think that it is naive to think that PostgreSQL is the only program that 
has used mktime's behavior in the negative-time_t zone.  Other packages are 
likely impacted, to a greater or lesser extent.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee> — 2002-05-21T18:54:06Z

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 21:31, Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday 21 May 2002 11:04 am, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> > > I see. This behavior is consistent with the fact that mktime is
> > > supposed to return -1 on error, but then is broken in every other Unix
> > > implementation that I know.
> > 
> > > Any other workaround than downgrade or install FreeBSD?
> > 
> > Complain to Red Hat.  Loudly. However, as this is a glibc change, other 
> > distributors are very likely to fold in this change sooner rather than 
> > later. 
> 
> Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a 
> glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at 
> it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.

Still it seems kind of silly to have a function that works different
from all other implementations and forces people to use their own
function of the same name (lifted from BSD and also compliant).

Speaking of nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour, I read from "The
Open Sources" book that if you implement TCP/IP strictly from the RFCs
then it won't interoperate with any other TCP/IP stack. 

I hope that Red Hat is not going to be "standards compliant" here ;)

--------------
Hannu

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-21T18:59:39Z

Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> writes:

> Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug,
> not a glibc bug.

The question is: how this thing didn't show up before? ISTM that
someone is not doing his work correctly.

> PostgreSQL needs fixing.

Arguably, however, right now is *a lot easier* to fix glibc, and it's
really needed for production systems using postgreSQL and working on
RedHat. But redhat users doesn't matter, the most important thing is
*strict* conformace to standars, right?

> Since we ship both, we're looking at it, but glibc is not the
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The sad true is: you only answered when the 'Complain to Red Hat'
statement appeared, not a single word before and not a single word
when the bug report were closed. I'm really disappointed.

The nice thing is: glibc is free software and we don't have to wait or
relay on some of the redhat staff members (thanks god) for this to get
fixed or say: for the standard to get extended again. The patch to
glibc is pretty straightforward and attached.

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> — 2002-05-21T19:09:34Z

On 21 May 2002, Manuel Sugawara wrote:

> Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> writes:
> 
> > Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug,
> > not a glibc bug.
> 
> The question is: how this thing didn't show up before? ISTM that
> someone is not doing his work correctly.

FWIW, I ran the regressions tests some time ago(probably before that 
change to glibc) . Since the tests are known 
to be broken wrt. time issues anyway (as well as currency, math and sorting), 
it's easy to overlook.

> > PostgreSQL needs fixing.
> 
> Arguably, however, right now is *a lot easier* to fix glibc, and it's
> really needed for production systems using postgreSQL and working on
> RedHat. 

You're not "fixing" glibc, you're reintroducing non-standardized, upstream 
removed behaviour. That's typically a very bad thing. If anything, it 
demonstrates the importance of not using or relying on 
unstandardized/undocumented behaviour (and given that time_t is pretty 
restrictive anyway, you'll need something else to keep dates. It doesn't 
even cover all living people, and definitely not historical dates).

> > Since we ship both, we're looking at it, but glibc is not the
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The sad true is: you only answered when the 'Complain to Red Hat'
> statement appeared, not a single word before and not a single word
> when the bug report were closed. I'm really disappointed.

The bug wasn't open for long, and was closed by someone else.

> The nice thing is: glibc is free software 

Also, notice that this was where the fix came from: The upstream 
maintainers (some of whom work for us, others don't).

-- 
Trond Eivind Glomsrød
Red Hat, Inc.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-21T19:44:40Z

On Tuesday 21 May 2002 03:09 pm, Trond Eivind Glomsrød wrote:
> FWIW, I ran the regressions tests some time ago(probably before that
> change to glibc) . Since the tests are known
> to be broken wrt. time issues anyway (as well as currency, math and
> sorting), it's easy to overlook.

The time tests have never broken in this manner before on Red Hat.  When the 
original regression failure report was posted, I saw right away that this was 
not the run of the mill locale issue -- this was a real problem.  Regression 
testing must become a regularly scheduled activity, methinks.  In the RPM 
build process, we can control the locale to the extent that the tests will 
pass (except on DST days) reliably.  I am going to implement this for my next 
RPM set.  Along with a patch to this problem -- we _can_ patch around this, I 
believe, but it's not likely going to be an easy one.

We have gotten blind to the regular locale-induced failures -- this is not a 
good thing.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2002-05-21T21:14:13Z

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Trond_Eivind_Glomsr=F8d?= <teg@redhat.com> writes:
> Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a 
> glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at 
> it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.

A library that can no longer cope with dates before 1970 is NOT my idea
of a component without a problem.  We will be looking at ways to get
around glibc's breakage at the application level, since we have little
alternative other than to declare Linux an unsupported platform;
but it's still glibc (and the ISO spec:-() that are broken.

			regards, tom lane

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk> — 2002-05-21T22:09:58Z

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 18:24, Lamar Owen wrote:
> In any case, this isn't just a Red Hat problem, as it's going to cause 
> problems with the use of timestamps on ANY glibc 2.2.5 dist.  That's more 
> than Red Hat, by a large margin.

I'm running glibc 2.2.5 on Debian and all regression tests pass OK (with
make check).  I don't see any note in the glibc Debian changelog about
reversing an upstream change to mktime().

I missed the first messages in this thread and I can't find them in the
archive.  What should I be looking for to see if I have the problem you
have encountered or to see why I don't have it if I ought to have?

-- 
Oliver Elphick                                Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
Isle of Wight                              http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839  932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C

     "O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel
      before the LORD our maker."          Psalms 95:6

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-21T22:47:05Z

On Tuesday 21 May 2002 06:09 pm, Oliver Elphick wrote:
> On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 18:24, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > In any case, this isn't just a Red Hat problem, as it's going to cause
> > problems with the use of timestamps on ANY glibc 2.2.5 dist.  That's more
> > than Red Hat, by a large margin.

> I'm running glibc 2.2.5 on Debian and all regression tests pass OK (with
> make check).  I don't see any note in the glibc Debian changelog about
> reversing an upstream change to mktime().

> I missed the first messages in this thread and I can't find them in the
> archive.  What should I be looking for to see if I have the problem you
> have encountered or to see why I don't have it if I ought to have?

Hmmm.  Compile and run the attached program.  If you get -1, it's the new 
behavior.  It might be interesting to see the differences here.....
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2002-05-21T23:33:20Z

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> writes:

> +#if 0
>    /* Only years after 1970 are defined.
>       If year is 69, it might still be representable due to
>       timezone differnces.  */
>    if (year < 69)
>      return -1;
> +#endif

Hm.  If that fixes it, it implies that all the other support for
pre-1970 dates is still there (notably, entries in the timezone tables).

Should we assume that future glibc releases will rip out the timezone
database entries and other support for pre-1970 dates?  Or is the
breakage going to stop with mktime?

			regards, tom lane

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> — 2002-05-22T01:09:11Z

Lamar Owen writes:

> SuSE already does this.  I wonder how they've handled this issue with
> 8.0?

Their glibc doesn't have that problem.

Personally, I think if you need time (zone) support before 1970, obtain
one of the various operating systems that support it.  There's little
value in hacking around it in PostgreSQL, since the rest of your system
will be broken as well.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-22T02:01:55Z

> > SuSE already does this.  I wonder how they've handled this issue with
> > 8.0?
> Their glibc doesn't have that problem.

My strong recollection is that a SuSE guy was the one applying the
change. So this is coming to those systems too. I may not remember that
correctly though...

> Personally, I think if you need time (zone) support before 1970, obtain
> one of the various operating systems that support it.  There's little
> value in hacking around it in PostgreSQL, since the rest of your system
> will be broken as well.

Yes, I'm afraid I agree. In practice, maybe most applications won't
notice. But after getting the Linux time zone databases set up to be
better than most (Solaris has the best I've found for fidelity to
pre-1970 year-to-year conventions) throwing that work away is just plain
silly. I consider this a major gaff on the part of the commercial Linux
houses to not see this coming and to contribute to a better solution.

                     - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk> — 2002-05-22T04:18:43Z

On Tue, 2002-05-21 at 23:47, Lamar Owen wrote:
> Hmmm.  Compile and run the attached program.  If you get -1, it's the new 
> behavior.  It might be interesting to see the differences here.....

$ a.out
The system thinks 11/30/1969 is a timestamp of -176400 
$ dpkg -l libc6
...
||/ Name           Version        Description
+++-==============-==============-============================================
ii  libc6          2.2.5-6        GNU C Library: Shared libraries and Timezone

-- 
Oliver Elphick                                Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
Isle of Wight                              http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839  932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C

     "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we 
      are perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not
      forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing
      about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that 
      the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our 
      body."        II Corinthians 4:8-10

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee> — 2002-05-22T04:33:45Z

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 02:14, Tom Lane wrote:
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Trond_Eivind_Glomsr=F8d?= <teg@redhat.com> writes:
> > Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a 
> > glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at 
> > it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.
> 
> A library that can no longer cope with dates before 1970 is NOT my idea
> of a component without a problem.  We will be looking at ways to get
> around glibc's breakage at the application level, since we have little
> alternative other than to declare Linux an unsupported platform;
> but it's still glibc (and the ISO spec:-() that are broken.

IIRC the spec is not _really_ broken - it still allows the correct
behaviour :)

The fact the ISO spec is broken usually means that at least one of the
big vendors involved in ISO spec creation must have had a broken
implementation at that time.

Most likely they have fixed it by now ...

Does anyone know _any_ other libc that has this behaviour ?

--------------
Hannu

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-22T13:30:05Z

> IIRC the spec is not _really_ broken - it still allows the correct
> behaviour :)

Yes.

> The fact the ISO spec is broken usually means that at least one of the
> big vendors involved in ISO spec creation must have had a broken
> implementation at that time.

Right. IBM.

> Most likely they have fixed it by now ...

Nope, though I don't know for sure. Anyone here have a recent AIX
machine to test?

> Does anyone know _any_ other libc that has this behaviour ?

AIX and (I think) Irix.

Trond, do you have a suggestion on how to get this addressed at the
glibc level? Does someone within RH participate in glibc development? If
so, can we get them to champion changes which would comply with the
standard but remove this arbitrary breakage?

The changes would involve returning -1 from mktime() for dates before
1970, and using the tm_isdst flag to indicate whether a time zone
translation was not possible.

                   - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lee Kindness <lkindness@csl.co.uk> — 2002-05-22T13:57:25Z

Thomas Lockhart writes:
 > Right. IBM.
 > > Most likely they have fixed it by now ...
 > Nope, though I don't know for sure. Anyone here have a recent AIX
 > machine to test?

Well on AIX 4.3.3 the output from  Lamar's earlier test program is:

 The system thinks 11/30/1969 is a timestamp of -1

and tm_isdst is left at -1...

I could boot the machine into 5.0 too, but going by the AIX 5L
manpages it still returns -1:

 Note: The mktime subroutine cannot convert time values before
 00:00:00 UTC, January 1, 1970 and after 03:14:07 UTC, January 19,
 2038.

And getting an Irix 5.3 box up and running would be a chore!

Lee.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-22T13:58:06Z

...
> > AIX and (I think) Irix.
> How do we currently support AIX/Irix ?

Dates and times prior to 1970 have no time zone (they are in GMT, as is
the case for all platforms on dates before 1903 and after 2038). We have
separate regression test results for those platforms.

                          - Tom

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> — 2002-05-22T14:25:02Z

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> > IIRC the spec is not _really_ broken - it still allows the correct
> > behaviour :)
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > The fact the ISO spec is broken usually means that at least one of the
> > big vendors involved in ISO spec creation must have had a broken
> > implementation at that time.
> 
> Right. IBM.
> 
> > Most likely they have fixed it by now ...
> 
> Nope, though I don't know for sure. Anyone here have a recent AIX
> machine to test?
> 
> > Does anyone know _any_ other libc that has this behaviour ?
> 
> AIX and (I think) Irix.
> 
> Trond, do you have a suggestion on how to get this addressed at the
> glibc level? Does someone within RH participate in glibc development?

Jakub Jelinek, Ulrich Drepper and others.

> If so, can we get them to champion changes which would comply with the
> standard but remove this arbitrary breakage?

Unlikely. They already saw (and participated, at least Ulrich) a thread on 
this with Lamar. Their take is "this is the  standard, you should do what 
the standard says and not rely on  
undocumented, non-standardized sideeffects.

> The changes would involve returning -1 from mktime() for dates before
> 1970, and using the tm_isdst flag to indicate whether a time zone
> translation was not possible.

-- 
Trond Eivind Glomsrød
Red Hat, Inc.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee> — 2002-05-22T14:48:54Z

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 15:30, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> > IIRC the spec is not _really_ broken - it still allows the correct
> > behaviour :)
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > The fact the ISO spec is broken usually means that at least one of the
> > big vendors involved in ISO spec creation must have had a broken
> > implementation at that time.
> 
> Right. IBM.
> 
> > Most likely they have fixed it by now ...
> 
> Nope, though I don't know for sure. Anyone here have a recent AIX
> machine to test?
> 
> > Does anyone know _any_ other libc that has this behaviour ?
> 
> AIX and (I think) Irix.

How do we currently support AIX/Irix ?

----------------
Hannu

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> — 2002-05-22T17:12:31Z

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 08:00, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> ...
> > > If so, can we get them to champion changes which would comply with the
> > > standard but remove this arbitrary breakage?
> > Unlikely. They already saw (and participated, at least Ulrich) a thread on
> > this with Lamar. Their take is "this is the  standard, you should do what
> > the standard says and not rely on undocumented, non-standardized sideeffects.
> 
> OK. They must be new guys.

:-) Very funny.

-- 
---------------.                          ,-.   1325 Chesapeake Terrace
Ulrich Drepper  \    ,-------------------'   \  Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Red Hat          `--' drepper at redhat.com   `------------------------

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-22T17:51:20Z

On Wednesday 22 May 2002 01:12 pm, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 08:00, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> > > > If so, can we get them to champion changes which would comply with
> > > > the standard but remove this arbitrary breakage?

> > > Unlikely. They already saw (and participated, at least Ulrich) a thread
> > > on this with Lamar. Their take is "this is the  standard, you should do
> > > what the standard says and not rely on undocumented, non-standardized
> > > sideeffects.

> > OK. They must be new guys.

> :-) Very funny.

What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2.5 
(same as Red Hat 7.3's version).  They are different.  And, IMO, those 
results are the 'expected' results on a unixoid system, ISO or no ISO.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> — 2002-05-22T17:58:15Z

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:

> What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2.5 
> (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).

This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
years) they'll get the same result.

If you are misusing interfaces you get what you deserve.  At no time was
it correct to use these functions for general date manipulation.  It
always only was allowed to use them to represent system times and there
was no Unix system before the epoch.  Therefore you argumentation is
completely wrong.

If you need date manipulation write your own code which work for all the
times you want to represent.

-- 
---------------.                          ,-.   1325 Chesapeake Terrace
Ulrich Drepper  \    ,-------------------'   \  Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Red Hat          `--' drepper at redhat.com   `------------------------

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2002-05-22T18:23:54Z

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> writes:
> If you are misusing interfaces you get what you deserve.  At no time was
> it correct to use these functions for general date manipulation.  It
> always only was allowed to use them to represent system times and there
> was no Unix system before the epoch.  Therefore you argumentation is
> completely wrong.

> If you need date manipulation write your own code which work for all the
> times you want to represent.

We may indeed end up doing that, if glibc fails to provide the
functionality we need; but your argument is nonsense.  Unix systems have
*always* interpreted time_t as a signed offset from the epoch.  Do you
really think that when Unixen were first built in the early 70s, there
was no interest in working with pre-1970 dates?  Hardly likely.

glibc has just taken a large step backwards by comparison to every other
libc on the planet.  Claiming that you are okay because you conform to
a lowest-common-denominator ISO spec is beside the point.  ISO specs are
only pieces of paper.  You have removed functionality that is de facto
standard, important in practice, and *provided by most of your
competition*.  People will start going to the competition.  Or perhaps
there will be a glibc fork.

Postgres is not the only application that will be complaining loudly
about this change; anyone who has to deal with historical information
is going to be unhappy.  We just happen to be the earliest bearers of
the bad news.  But you will end up reverting this change due to pushback
from users.  Want to make a side bet?

			regards, tom lane

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> — 2002-05-22T18:40:58Z

On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 11:23, Tom Lane wrote:

> Unix systems have
> *always* interpreted time_t as a signed offset from the epoch.

No.  This always was an accident if it happens.

> Do you
> really think that when Unixen were first built in the early 70s, there
> was no interest in working with pre-1970 dates?  Hardly likely.

There never were files or any system events with these dates.  Yes.

And just to educate you and your likes: the majority of systems on this
planet use mktime this way.  I hate using this as an argument, but
beside major Unixes M$ systems also do this.

> But you will end up reverting this change due to pushback
> from users.  Want to make a side bet?

Sure.  Especially not everybody is that stubborn.

-- 
---------------.                          ,-.   1325 Chesapeake Terrace
Ulrich Drepper  \    ,-------------------'   \  Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Red Hat          `--' drepper at redhat.com   `------------------------

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-22T18:58:38Z

On Wednesday 22 May 2002 01:58 pm, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc
> > 2.2.5 (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).

> This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
> years) they'll get the same result.

A completely different version with the same version number?  Or is this a 
case of a Red Hat version number really meaning something different   
Shouldn't glibc 2.2.5 be the same as glibc 2.2.5 regardless of distribution?

And who's to stop them patching out the new stuff and reinstating the old 
behavior? :-)

> If you are misusing interfaces you get what you deserve.  At no time was
> it correct to use these functions for general date manipulation.  It
> always only was allowed to use them to represent system times and there
> was no Unix system before the epoch.  Therefore you argumentation is
> completely wrong.

If it is completely wrong, then tell Sun, HP, and all the rest of the Unix 
vendors, including the authors of the original AT&T code as lifted by 
Berkeley, that they're wrong and you're right.  They'll laugh you to scorn.

And just which 'major Unixen' other than AIX and Irix that follow the letter 
of the 'seconds since the epoch' definition of the ISO standard?

> If you need date manipulation write your own code which work for all the
> times you want to represent.

The mktime bug doesn't effect our representation of dates and times other than 
the timezone at this time.  What's aggravating to me is the surprise factor.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Manuel Sugawara <masm@fciencias.unam.mx> — 2002-05-22T19:09:18Z

This thread is getting pretty annoying rather than constructive. By
the mean time I can see the users of many db's running under linux
loudly complaining.

As a user of both products (glibc and postgres), I would like to see a
good compromise in both sides. For instance: postgreSQL will implement
it's own time engine in one or to releases (In a few months I can do
it if no one else volunteers) and glibc will revert this change for
one or two releases (I can do it right now). That way everyone will be
happy; particularly me and many others using glibc and postgres.

Regards,
Manuel.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-23T00:20:21Z

> > OK. They must be new guys.
> :-) Very funny.

Hey, it worked. Got you out of the woodwork. :))

                   - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp> — 2002-05-23T01:14:01Z

> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 15:30, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> > > IIRC the spec is not _really_ broken - it still allows the correct
> > > behaviour :)
> > 
> > Yes.
> > 
> > > The fact the ISO spec is broken usually means that at least one of the
> > > big vendors involved in ISO spec creation must have had a broken
> > > implementation at that time.
> > 
> > Right. IBM.
> > 
> > > Most likely they have fixed it by now ...
> > 
> > Nope, though I don't know for sure. Anyone here have a recent AIX
> > machine to test?
> > 
> > > Does anyone know _any_ other libc that has this behaviour ?
> > 
> > AIX and (I think) Irix.
> 
> How do we currently support AIX/Irix ?

Why should we rely on broken glibc and the standard? Why don't we make
our own mktime() and use it on all platforms.
--
Tatsuo Ishii

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-23T01:51:07Z

...
> Why should we rely on broken glibc and the standard? Why don't we make
> our own mktime() and use it on all platforms.

The downside to doing that is that we then take over maintenance of the
code and, more importantly, the timezone database.

But it might be the best thing to do. It looks like the zic package
pointed to the other day could be used, though we may have to change
some of the variables and entry points to avoid library conflicts. But
we could also blow past the y2038 limit afaict which would be nice.

                    - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2002-05-23T02:19:04Z

Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org> writes:
>> Why should we rely on broken glibc and the standard? Why don't we make
>> our own mktime() and use it on all platforms.

> The downside to doing that is that we then take over maintenance of the
> code and, more importantly, the timezone database.

> But it might be the best thing to do.

I've been sorta thinking the same thing.  We could get out from under
the Y2038 issue, and also eliminate a whole lot of platform
dependencies.  Not to mention sillinesses like being unable to recognize
a bad timezone name when it's fed to us.

Exactly how much work (and code bulk) would we be taking on?  I've
never looked at how big the timezone databases are...

			regards, tom lane

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Magnus Naeslund(f) <mag@fbab.net> — 2002-05-23T02:42:13Z

Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Exactly how much work (and code bulk) would we be taking on?  I've
> never looked at how big the timezone databases are...
> 

Some answers on database sizes, if this is any help...
I did "du -sh /usr/share/zoneinfo/" on them all.

OpenBSD 3.1, sparc64:
1.3M    /usr/share/zoneinfo/

Linux, i686, oldish mandrake (6.x?), glibc 2.1.3:
478k    /usr/share/zoneinfo

Linux, i686, newish redhat 7.2, glibc 2.2.4:
4.9M    /usr/share/zoneinfo

Linux, alpha EV56, oldish redhat 6.2, glibc 2.1.3
1.4M    /usr/share/zoneinfo

> regards, tom lane

Magnus

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Programmer/Networker [|] Magnus Naeslund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> — 2002-05-23T08:44:04Z

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 04:42:13AM +0200, Magnus Naeslund(f) wrote:
> Some answers on database sizes, if this is any help...
> I did "du -sh /usr/share/zoneinfo/" on them all.
> 
> OpenBSD 3.1, sparc64:
> 1.3M    /usr/share/zoneinfo/
> 
> Linux, i686, oldish mandrake (6.x?), glibc 2.1.3:
> 478k    /usr/share/zoneinfo
> 
> Linux, i686, newish redhat 7.2, glibc 2.2.4:
> 4.9M    /usr/share/zoneinfo
  ^^^^

What do they do with that di?

> Linux, alpha EV56, oldish redhat 6.2, glibc 2.1.3
> 1.4M    /usr/share/zoneinfo

Here's what my Debian Woody system says:

1.5M    /usr/share/zoneinfo

And this is with glibc 2.2.5. Of course this wouldn't be the first time
that RedHat uses the same version number for a different version.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> — 2002-05-23T14:20:22Z

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:58:15AM -0700, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> > What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2.5 
> > (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).
> 
> This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
> years) they'll get the same result.

Ulrich, how shall I understand this? I'm pretty sure Oliver
does not use a Debian 2.2 system with glibc-2.1.3 but a pretty
up-to-date one. The glibc version in the soon to be released Woody
release is 2.2.5. 

This seems to be the very same version that RedHat uses. So what
could/should Debian update? Besides, the "in a few years" comment looks
like FUD to me. It may be a few years since we talked the last time, but
I cannot imagine you changed that much that you spread FUD
nowadays. So I probably misunderstood this sentence, but nevertheless
would like to know what Debian should update.

Or do you mean that once Debian updates to glibc 2.3 (or whatever the
next release will be) it will show the same results? Does RedHat 7.3
already run on that new release? But then I would think they changed the
version number.

Michael

-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Marc Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 2002-05-23T14:36:35Z

On 22 May 2002, Ulrich Drepper wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> > What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2.5
> > (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).
>
> This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
> years) they'll get the same result.
>
> If you are misusing interfaces you get what you deserve.  At no time was
> it correct to use these functions for general date manipulation.  It
> always only was allowed to use them to represent system times and there
> was no Unix system before the epoch.  Therefore you argumentation is
> completely wrong.
>
> If you need date manipulation write your own code which work for all the
> times you want to represent.

We are Redhat, you will be assimilated

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Marc Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 2002-05-23T14:39:38Z

On 22 May 2002, Ulrich Drepper wrote:

> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 11:23, Tom Lane wrote:
>
> > Unix systems have
> > *always* interpreted time_t as a signed offset from the epoch.
>
> No.  This always was an accident if it happens.
>
> > Do you
> > really think that when Unixen were first built in the early 70s, there
> > was no interest in working with pre-1970 dates?  Hardly likely.
>
> There never were files or any system events with these dates.  Yes.
>
> And just to educate you and your likes: the majority of systems on this
> planet use mktime this way.  I hate using this as an argument, but
> beside major Unixes M$ systems also do this.

M$ systems crashes regularly too ... is Redhat going to adopt that too?

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com — 2002-05-23T15:02:03Z

> --=-Z1lifK4QZqKV8kHqHfYT
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> > What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2=
> .5=20
> > (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).
> 
> This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
> years) they'll get the same result.
> 
> If you are misusing interfaces you get what you deserve.  At no time was
> it correct to use these functions for general date manipulation.  It
> always only was allowed to use them to represent system times and there
> was no Unix system before the epoch.  Therefore you argumentation is
> completely wrong.
> 
> If you need date manipulation write your own code which work for all the
> times you want to represent.

This is indeed a problem with dates on LIBC, because even if it is 
theoretically satisfactory to describe dates within some range within 2^31 
seconds of 1970, that is certainly NOT satisfactory for describing all dates 
of interest unless you're being terribly parochial about what is to be 
considered "of interest."

My father's birth falls within 2^31 seconds of 1970, but the Battle of 
Agincourt doesn't.

Any backup of any Unix system in history falls within 2^31 seconds of 1970, 
but there are people alive whose births don't.

People get away with using Unix dates as a "general" date type when they don't 
have to work outside a limited range.  If/when there is a move to 64 bit 
values, that will provide something with enough range to cover history back to 
ridiculously early times, relieving the limit.

But anybody using Unix dates as "general dates" has leaped into exactly the 
same sort of trap that caused people to get so paranoid about Y2K.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@acm.org")
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/oses.html
Do Roman paramedics refer to IV's as "4's"? 

-- 
(concatenate 'string "aa454" "@freenet.carleton.ca")
http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linuxxian.html
"So, when you typed in the date, it exploded into a sheet of blue
flame and burned the entire admin wing to the ground? Yes, that's a
known bug. We'll be fixing it in the next release. Until then, try not
to use European date format, and keep an extinguisher handy."
-- slam@pobox.com (Tequila Rapide)

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com — 2002-05-23T16:17:09Z

> On 22 May 2002, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 11:23, Tom Lane wrote:
> >
> > > Unix systems have
> > > *always* interpreted time_t as a signed offset from the epoch.
> >
> > No.  This always was an accident if it happens.
> >
> > > Do you
> > > really think that when Unixen were first built in the early 70s, there
> > > was no interest in working with pre-1970 dates?  Hardly likely.
> >
> > There never were files or any system events with these dates.  Yes.
> >
> > And just to educate you and your likes: the majority of systems on this
> > planet use mktime this way.  I hate using this as an argument, but
> > beside major Unixes M$ systems also do this.
> 
> M$ systems crashes regularly too ... is Redhat going to adopt that too?

Harbison and Steele indicates that:

  "Although the traditional return type of time is long, the value returned is 
usually of type unsigned long."

That is NOT a "Linux" reference; it was published before Linus had started 
working on his kernel project.

ANSI does not indicate that time_t is a signed int, signed long, or whatever.  
It is only defined to be an arithmetic type.

It would not be a bug for GLIBC to define time_t to be an unsigned int, with 
an epoch beginning of January 1, 1999.  That definition would conform to ANSI 
C.

Since that definition can conform to ANSI C, and Unix systems have more 
particularly been known to use unsigned ints with epoch of 1970, it is NOT 
reasonable to assume that time_t can be used to express dates that are at all 
ancient in the past.

Indeed, it is fairly _useful_ for different libc implementations to make 
different assumptions about things whose definitions are permitted to vary, as 
this makes it easier to call out as WRONG those systems that make up their own 
definitions.

People will no doubt get defensive about their own non-standard 
implementations of things; it is certainly far easier to cry "They're trying 
to play Microsoft!" than it is to be honest and actually look at the standards.
--
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@ntlug.org")
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/advocacy.html
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

-- 
(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.mca@" "enworbbc"))
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/linuxxian.html
As of next Monday, COMSAT will be flushed in favor of a string and two tin
cans.  Please update your software.

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> — 2002-05-23T16:29:06Z

On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 07:20, Michael Meskes wrote:

> The glibc version in the soon to be released Woody
> release is 2.2.5. 

The version in RHL7.3 is 2.2.5-34.  This is not what Debian uses.  Maybe
you should read the changelog for the version.

-- 
---------------.                          ,-.   1325 Chesapeake Terrace
Ulrich Drepper  \    ,-------------------'   \  Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Red Hat          `--' drepper at redhat.com   `------------------------

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Marc Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 2002-05-24T00:12:26Z

On Thu, 23 May 2002 cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com wrote:

> > On 22 May 2002, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 11:23, Tom Lane wrote:
> > >
> > > > Unix systems have
> > > > *always* interpreted time_t as a signed offset from the epoch.
> > >
> > > No.  This always was an accident if it happens.
> > >
> > > > Do you
> > > > really think that when Unixen were first built in the early 70s, there
> > > > was no interest in working with pre-1970 dates?  Hardly likely.
> > >
> > > There never were files or any system events with these dates.  Yes.
> > >
> > > And just to educate you and your likes: the majority of systems on this
> > > planet use mktime this way.  I hate using this as an argument, but
> > > beside major Unixes M$ systems also do this.
> >
> > M$ systems crashes regularly too ... is Redhat going to adopt that too?

< stuff deleted >

> People will no doubt get defensive about their own non-standard
> implementations of things; it is certainly far easier to cry "They're trying
> to play Microsoft!" than it is to be honest and actually look at the standards.

Just to clarify, if this was directed at my comment, I wasn't the one that
brought up the fact that "Redhat is trying to play Microsoft", Ulrich was
the one that brought it into the argument ... I was just curious as to how
far they planned on getting to what M$ systems do ...

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk> — 2002-05-24T06:25:53Z

On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 15:20, Michael Meskes wrote:
> On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 10:58:15AM -0700, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> > On Wed, 2002-05-22 at 10:51, Lamar Owen wrote:
> > 
> > > What isn't funny is Oliver Elphick's results on Debian, running glibc 2.2.5 
> > > (same as Red Hat 7.3's version).
> > 
> > This is a completely different version.  Once Debian updates (in a few
> > years) they'll get the same result.
> 
> Ulrich, how shall I understand this? I'm pretty sure Oliver
> does not use a Debian 2.2 system with glibc-2.1.3 but a pretty
> up-to-date one. The glibc version in the soon to be released Woody
> release is 2.2.5. 

In fact, I run "unstable" and the version is 2.2.5-6.  I couldn't see
any reference in the Debian changelog, but I'm wondering if the change
was commented out.  I haven't had the time to download the source and go
looking.

-- 
Oliver Elphick                                Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
Isle of Wight                              http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839  932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C

     "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully 
      made..."       Psalms 139:14

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> — 2002-05-24T07:10:44Z

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 09:29:06AM -0700, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> On Thu, 2002-05-23 at 07:20, Michael Meskes wrote:
> 
> > The glibc version in the soon to be released Woody
> > release is 2.2.5. 
> 
> The version in RHL7.3 is 2.2.5-34.  This is not what Debian uses.  Maybe
> you should read the changelog for the version.

So with your arithmetics 2.2.5 != 2.2.5. Hey that's great. How about
naming the next Linux kernel release 2.0 just to confuse some people?
:-)

Seriously though, while this is offtopic on this list, I wonder what's
going on. If I have a system with glibc 2.2.5, I cannot expect this to
be the same version as on another system with glibc 2.2.5. Is this the
correct understanding?

And which changelog should I read? The RedHat one, the Debian one or the
glibc one? 

Or does the -34 mean more than just the RedHat version number? The
Debian version is correctly named 2.2.5-6 where the -6 means that this
is the 6th release of glibc 2.2.5 for Debian,

Michael

-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

lockhart@fourpalms.org — 2002-05-24T13:10:39Z

...
> But anybody using Unix dates as "general dates" has leaped into exactly the
> same sort of trap that caused people to get so paranoid about Y2K.

Certainly true. We don't use Unix dates as "general dates", we use the
Unix time zone database and API for dates and times within the year
range of 1903 to 2038. Well, up until now anyway...

Prior to the 1900s, the concept of time zones was more localized and not
universally adopted. In the US, a first round of time zone
standardization came with the transcontinental railroads in the 1860s.
After 2038, it is a good bet that time zones will resemble those in use
today, but they are as much a political construct as a physical one so
the details are subject to change.

                      - Thomas

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> — 2002-05-24T19:03:56Z

Michael Meskes writes:

> Or does the -34 mean more than just the RedHat version number? The
> Debian version is correctly named 2.2.5-6 where the -6 means that this
> is the 6th release of glibc 2.2.5 for Debian,

Just for general amusement:  I run SuSE's glibc 2.2.5-38 which contains
neither the questionable code in the original sources nor is there any
reference to it in the patch set.  Go figure.

-- 
Peter Eisentraut   peter_e@gmx.net

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> — 2002-05-24T19:15:47Z

On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 12:03, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> > Or does the -34 mean more than just the RedHat version number? The
> > Debian version is correctly named 2.2.5-6 where the -6 means that this
> > is the 6th release of glibc 2.2.5 for Debian,
> 
> Just for general amusement:  I run SuSE's glibc 2.2.5-38 which contains
> neither the questionable code in the original sources nor is there any
> reference to it in the patch set.  Go figure.

This is getting silly.  Does nobody here understand that the release
number is local for each distribution.  Comparing them does not lead to
anything.  If you want to find out run

   rpm -q --changelog glibc | less

on a RH system.  Don't know what other systems provide in this
direction.  You'll see that the glibc in RHL7.3 contains a lot of the
code from the glibc 2.3 branch.  It's not named 2.2.90 because major
pieces are missing.

If you still don't know that version numbers are meaningless for
determining feature lists you might want to consider going back to your
CS101 class and revisit software configuration management.

-- 
---------------.                          ,-.   1325 Chesapeake Terrace
Ulrich Drepper  \    ,-------------------'   \  Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Red Hat          `--' drepper at redhat.com   `------------------------

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Nigel J. Andrews <nandrews@investsystems.co.uk> — 2002-05-25T01:55:58Z

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Michael Meskes writes:
> 
> > Or does the -34 mean more than just the RedHat version number? The
> > Debian version is correctly named 2.2.5-6 where the -6 means that this
> > is the 6th release of glibc 2.2.5 for Debian,
> 
> Just for general amusement:  I run SuSE's glibc 2.2.5-38 which contains
> neither the questionable code in the original sources nor is there any
> reference to it in the patch set.  Go figure.

You've got to remember that you're talking about systems where, a long time ago
now, certain groups felt it necessary to supply nonstandard versions of the
core component (the kernel). Sure they helped development of the kernel but
only through bastardisation of version numbers where 2.0.1 didn't really mean 
a Linux 2.0.1 kernel. Is it really surprising the system support stuff has been
mangled beyond sense?

Anyway, I've composed several and aborted all but this message on this subject
and I'm not going to persue it. I have my own views on the right and wrongs off
the change in glibc but they wouldn't have advanced anything so I'm keeping
quiet on it, still. It seems there is a solution forming. Plus, I'd hate to
side with the baddies from the first paragraph :)

-- 
Nigel J. Andrews
Director

---
Logictree Systems Limited
Computer Consultants

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Michael Meskes <meskes@postgresql.org> — 2002-05-25T19:55:01Z

On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 12:15:47PM -0700, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> This is getting silly.  Does nobody here understand that the release

Yes, but I'm not sure on which side.

> number is local for each distribution.  Comparing them does not lead to

No, this is simply not true. The version number is what the upstream
gives its release. No more no less. What RH does is becoming as subtly
incompatible a possible. If that's the goal, it doesn't look like free
software for me. Sure all changes are published, but why forcing this
kind of difference between linux distributions? Why not calling it 2.2.6
or something if there has to be some changes that are not compatible?

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael@Fam-Meskes.De
Go SF 49ers! Go Rhein Fire!
Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL!

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Marc Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 2002-05-26T03:32:40Z

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Michael Meskes wrote:

> No, this is simply not true. The version number is what the upstream
> gives its release. No more no less. What RH does is becoming as subtly
> incompatible a possible. If that's the goal, it doesn't look like free
> software for me. Sure all changes are published, but why forcing this
> kind of difference between linux distributions? Why not calling it 2.2.6
> or something if there has to be some changes that are not compatible?

Or rlibc? :)

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org> — 2002-05-28T02:18:17Z

On Friday 24 May 2002 03:15 pm, Ulrich Drepper wrote:
> This is getting silly.

Yes, Ulrich, it is.  Very silly.  And Red Hat's stance is one of the silliest, 
IMHO.

>You'll see that the glibc in RHL7.3 contains a lot of the
> code from the glibc 2.3 branch.  It's not named 2.2.90 because major
> pieces are missing.

> If you still don't know that version numbers are meaningless for
> determining feature lists you might want to consider going back to your
> CS101 class and revisit software configuration management.

IOW, Red Hat's glibc 2.2.5 isn't really pristine glibc 2.2.5 as found straight 
from the GNU repository.  In fact, Red Hat glibc 2.2.5 isn't really 2.2.5 -- 
how about 2.2.96? :-)  .96 was good enough for gcc....

Furthermore, Red Hat glibc 2.2.5 isn't even fully compatible with GNU glibc 
2.2.5 -- at least in the area of time_t stuff.

In the open source world, version numbers are actually supposed to mean 
something -- at least for package dependencies.  Of course, I also have read 
the kernel-2.4.18 source RPM and its 21.8MB 'ac-bits' patch.

You do realize that this sort of thing doesn't help Red Hat's PR state amongst 
the greater open source community, right?  Nor would it help Mandrake, SuSE, 
or any other Linux distributor (I specifically excluded Debian due to its 
unique community supported state).  But, if you don't care about the greater 
open source community, well...

And I say all of that while running and enjoying the greater part of Red Hat 
7.3.  For the most part it is extraordinarily stable.  And I know that that 
21.8MB kernel patch is one of the reasons it is so stable.  But I still 
question the versioning of glibc.

So, in summary, the glibc version number in any particular linux distribution 
is meaningless because the distributor is free to patch the bloody daylights 
out of it at any time.  Sweet.  And so standard.

But, if glibc 2.3 is where this bit came from, it is just a matter of time 
before all Linux distributions (that aren't willing to patch away) get this 
braindead behavior.  Oh well.  The general solution will happen.
-- 
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> — 2002-06-07T05:04:30Z

Tom Lane wrote:
> Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org> writes:
> >> Why should we rely on broken glibc and the standard? Why don't we make
> >> our own mktime() and use it on all platforms.
> 
> > The downside to doing that is that we then take over maintenance of the
> > code and, more importantly, the timezone database.
> 
> > But it might be the best thing to do.
> 
> I've been sorta thinking the same thing.  We could get out from under
> the Y2038 issue, and also eliminate a whole lot of platform
> dependencies.  Not to mention sillinesses like being unable to recognize
> a bad timezone name when it's fed to us.
> 
> Exactly how much work (and code bulk) would we be taking on?  I've
> never looked at how big the timezone databases are...

I am not really excited about distributing a timezone database as part
of PostgreSQL, and it wouldn't match the OS's timezone.  (We do need a
64-time time_t, but I think we can wait to get closer to 2038.) Can we
detect if glibc is being used for the compile (easy), and substitute a
non-broken mktime in the link path ahead of glibc's mktime?  Seems that
would be the easiest solution.

Of course, pre-1970 dates then wouldn't match the OS on glibc systems,
but that seems like a win.  :-)

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Re: Redhat 7.3 time manipulation bug

Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> — 2002-06-07T05:11:22Z

Trond Eivind Glomsrd wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2002, Lamar Owen wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday 21 May 2002 11:04 am, Manuel Sugawara wrote:
> > > I see. This behavior is consistent with the fact that mktime is
> > > supposed to return -1 on error, but then is broken in every other Unix
> > > implementation that I know.
> > 
> > > Any other workaround than downgrade or install FreeBSD?
> > 
> > Complain to Red Hat.  Loudly. However, as this is a glibc change, other 
> > distributors are very likely to fold in this change sooner rather than 
> > later. 
> 
> Relying on nonstandardized/nondocumented behaviour is a program bug, not a 
> glibc bug. PostgreSQL needs fixing. Since we ship both, we're looking at 
> it, but glibc is not the component with a problem.

No one has really answered the question --- if the way PostgreSQL is
using mktime() for pre-1970 dates is wrong, why do timezone databases
have pre-1970 timezone information?

I assume Linux does or the old mktime() wouldn't have worked for
pre-1970 dates.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026