Horton

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  1. bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> — 2001-08-22T00:08:19Z

    In the seemingly hundreds of thousands of messages on the bug database
topic I think I've come up with the following..

Needs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
easy reporting of bugs - sent to bugs list
easy lookup of previous bugs
summary of fix or workaround
detail of fix or work around
little to no intervention of
  developers
ability of developer to add
  comments


That should sum it up.

Now some history..  Over the last couple of years we've tried a
number (5 I think) of bug tracking packages.  Either Marc or me
or both have had to learn it, install it, get it going and the
result has been the same - the maintainers don't want to update
it, it's a pain in the ass to administrator, set up, etc.

The current bugtool.

After a bunch of these failures I asked for input on what was
needed in a tool.  Web input interface, ability to track the
bug report, email notification to the bug list, email notification
to the reporter of the bug.

The current bugtool does this, however the maintainers don't want
to close the reports.  I'm not faulting them, they're doing their
jobs by fixing the bugs and reporting them to the bugs list.

Updating the database.

We've had a couple of volunteers to keep the database up to date.
Is it enough?  I dunno, if I were to guess I'd have to look at
previous experience and say probably not.  But I don't want that
to discourage anything or anyone.

Realities

PostgreSQL is growing by leaps and bounds.  Ross pointed out this
fact earlier today.  A solution has to happen and it has to happen
now.  If a tool is to be adapted to this task it will be the one
I'm most familiar with - the current one.

Solution..

Is implementing yet another bugtool going to be the solution?
Probably not.  Do I want to go for number six?  No.

Of the ideas posted, these stick out:

	o Web input
	o Minimal staff involvement
	o Maximal mailing list reporting
	o History
	o Searchability



Here's what I propose.

The current tool has a form - we keep it.
The current tool mails to the bugs list - we keep it.

Rather than searching the bugs list for open bugs that may not even
be open, the search tool will need to search not only the database
but it needs to also search the archives.  For now (until the 400+
are classified) the search should/will search the bugs mailing list
rather than the database.

Recruit more than two people to help update the bugs database.

After the database is somewhat up to date, include it into the
normal search mechanism.

Now then..  The folks that actually fix things, will this suffice
as a start to our shortcomingss?  If not, what is missing??  If
so, let me know and I'll implement this in the short term.  Silence
at this time is definitely NOT A GOOD THING!!!

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
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  2. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Trond Eivind Glomsrød <teg@redhat.com> — 2001-08-22T02:02:24Z

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> writes:

> Now some history..  Over the last couple of years we've tried a
> number (5 I think) of bug tracking packages.  Either Marc or me
> or both have had to learn it, install it, get it going and the
> result has been the same - the maintainers don't want to update
> it, it's a pain in the ass to administrator, set up, etc.
> 
> The current bugtool.
> 
> After a bunch of these failures I asked for input on what was
> needed in a tool.  Web input interface, ability to track the
> bug report, email notification to the bug list, email notification
> to the reporter of the bug.

FTR, we're using bugzilla for this and it works great. We're working
on porting it PostgreSQL.

  ftp://people.redhat.com/dkl/ should contain a recent state 

-- 
Trond Eivind Glomsrød
Red Hat, Inc.

  3. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    D. Hageman <dhageman@dracken.com> — 2001-08-22T02:07:03Z

    On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

>
> In the seemingly hundreds of thousands of messages on the bug database
> topic I think I've come up with the following..
>
> Solution..
>
> Is implementing yet another bugtool going to be the solution?
> Probably not.  Do I want to go for number six?  No.
>
>
> The current tool has a form - we keep it.
> The current tool mails to the bugs list - we keep it.

You are correct on implementing another bug reporting tool - why re-invent
the wheel?  Why not use the bugzilla project for bug tracking?  I do
believe it has a postgresql backend by now and if it doesn't - I am sure
it will soon or would be trivial to make a backend and contribute it back.
This tool has been popularized by Mozilla and RedHat ... saying that I am
sure the couple of RedHat employees on the list wouldn't mind giving a
hand with setup and what not (though they will have to speak for
themselves on this issues).

-- 
//========================================================\\
||  D. Hageman                    <dhageman@dracken.com>  ||
\\========================================================//

  4. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2001-08-22T03:30:01Z

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> writes:
> Needs

> easy reporting of bugs - sent to bugs list
> easy lookup of previous bugs
> summary of fix or workaround
> detail of fix or work around
> little to no intervention of
>   developers
> ability of developer to add
>   comments

> That should sum it up.

Check.

> We've had a couple of volunteers to keep the database up to date.
> Is it enough?  I dunno, if I were to guess I'd have to look at
> previous experience and say probably not.

AFAIR, we had *zero* people paying any attention to the state of the
bug database up to now.  A couple of people ought to make a big
difference.

> Is implementing yet another bugtool going to be the solution?
> Probably not.  Do I want to go for number six?  No.

If you're the man maintaining it then I'm certainly not going to tell
you how to do your job.  OTOH --- it does seem like a lot of people
like Bugzilla.  Might be worth at least a cursory look.

> Here's what I propose.

> The current tool has a form - we keep it.
> The current tool mails to the bugs list - we keep it.

Those are both fine.  How do we get feedback in the other direction,
ie mailing lists to bug database?  That's the $64 question in my mind
at the moment.

			regards, tom lane

  5. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Oleg Bartunov <oleg@sai.msu.su> — 2001-08-22T12:01:40Z

    I think it'd be not so difficult to extend our mailware
(fts.postgresql.org) to handle bug-list. Actually,
mailware has much more features, it's already has search/read,
track features. Adding post is trivial. Developers (who actually
fix a bugs) usually read mailing lists and reply's to BUG, which
should be automatically go to corresponding bug-thread.

	Oleg
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Tom Lane wrote:

> Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> writes:
> > Needs
>
> > easy reporting of bugs - sent to bugs list
> > easy lookup of previous bugs
> > summary of fix or workaround
> > detail of fix or work around
> > little to no intervention of
> >   developers
> > ability of developer to add
> >   comments
>
> > That should sum it up.
>
> Check.
>
> > We've had a couple of volunteers to keep the database up to date.
> > Is it enough?  I dunno, if I were to guess I'd have to look at
> > previous experience and say probably not.
>
> AFAIR, we had *zero* people paying any attention to the state of the
> bug database up to now.  A couple of people ought to make a big
> difference.
>
> > Is implementing yet another bugtool going to be the solution?
> > Probably not.  Do I want to go for number six?  No.
>
> If you're the man maintaining it then I'm certainly not going to tell
> you how to do your job.  OTOH --- it does seem like a lot of people
> like Bugzilla.  Might be worth at least a cursory look.
>
> > Here's what I propose.
>
> > The current tool has a form - we keep it.
> > The current tool mails to the bugs list - we keep it.
>
> Those are both fine.  How do we get feedback in the other direction,
> ie mailing lists to bug database?  That's the $64 question in my mind
> at the moment.
>
> 			regards, tom lane
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>

	Regards,
		Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

  6. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> — 2001-08-22T18:56:06Z

    On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, D. Hageman wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Vince Vielhaber wrote:
>
> >
> > In the seemingly hundreds of thousands of messages on the bug database
> > topic I think I've come up with the following..
> >
> > Solution..
> >
> > Is implementing yet another bugtool going to be the solution?
> > Probably not.  Do I want to go for number six?  No.
> >
> >
> > The current tool has a form - we keep it.
> > The current tool mails to the bugs list - we keep it.
>
> You are correct on implementing another bug reporting tool - why re-invent
> the wheel?  Why not use the bugzilla project for bug tracking?  I do
> believe it has a postgresql backend by now and if it doesn't - I am sure
> it will soon or would be trivial to make a backend and contribute it back.
> This tool has been popularized by Mozilla and RedHat ... saying that I am
> sure the couple of RedHat employees on the list wouldn't mind giving a
> hand with setup and what not (though they will have to speak for
> themselves on this issues).

Everybody keeps saying bugzilla.  What EXACTLY will bugzilla do for us
that would make me want to learn it and install it?  BTW, the current
wheel was invented a year ago 'cuze nothing really fit what we needed.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

  7. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Colin 't Hart <cthart@yahoo.com> — 2001-08-23T08:00:40Z

    Vince asks:

> Everybody keeps saying bugzilla.  What EXACTLY will bugzilla do for us
> that would make me want to learn it and install it?  BTW, the current
> wheel was invented a year ago 'cuze nothing really fit what we needed.

The reasons I would choose Bugzilla:

1. It's *not* written by us so (in theory) we don't have to waste time
developing yet another bug tracking solution.

2. It sends email to people involved with a bug whenever the detail
associated with that bug is modified. This includes the reporter, who
often will feedback that it now works, at which time the fixer or the
reporter can mark the bug as fixed.

3. It complains when a NEW bug hasn't been looked at for /n/ days --
this means that any not-a-bug's will be closed, while any that are
really bugs will be accepted.

4. Good query facilities, if a little complex to use.

5. I think Bugzilla's concepts of products, components and versions fit
the way we work.
I envisage that 'Postgres', 'Interfaces', 'Languages' might be products
that we would have.
Within 'Postgres' we would have the various subsystems that make up the
core.
Within 'Interfaces' we would have 'JDBC', 'ODBC' etc.
Within 'Languages' we would have 'PL/pgSQL' etc.


Arguments accepted.


There are other tools the Mozilla project uses that we could also use:

Tinderbox -- continuous automated builds, including subsequent regression
tests
(useful for seeing who broke CVS).
Bonsai -- CVS integration for Bugzilla


Cheers,

Colin

  8. Re: Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> — 2001-08-23T10:18:27Z

    On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Colin 't Hart wrote:

> Vince asks:
>
> > Everybody keeps saying bugzilla.  What EXACTLY will bugzilla do for us
> > that would make me want to learn it and install it?  BTW, the current
> > wheel was invented a year ago 'cuze nothing really fit what we needed.
>
> The reasons I would choose Bugzilla:
>
> 1. It's *not* written by us so (in theory) we don't have to waste time
> developing yet another bug tracking solution.

What we have is already developed and refining it isn't a problem.

> 2. It sends email to people involved with a bug whenever the detail
> associated with that bug is modified. This includes the reporter, who
> often will feedback that it now works, at which time the fixer or the
> reporter can mark the bug as fixed.

What we have already does this, but noone was using it.

> 3. It complains when a NEW bug hasn't been looked at for /n/ days --
> this means that any not-a-bug's will be closed, while any that are
> really bugs will be accepted.

This would piss off the developers.

> 4. Good query facilities, if a little complex to use.

Please elaborate.

> 5. I think Bugzilla's concepts of products, components and versions fit
> the way we work.
> I envisage that 'Postgres', 'Interfaces', 'Languages' might be products
> that we would have.
> Within 'Postgres' we would have the various subsystems that make up the
> core.
> Within 'Interfaces' we would have 'JDBC', 'ODBC' etc.
> Within 'Languages' we would have 'PL/pgSQL' etc.

I can see a little benefit to this, but for the most part the same
people that are working on the core pieces of PostgreSQL are also
working on the interfaces and languages.

Vince.
-- 
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH    email: vev@michvhf.com    http://www.pop4.net
         56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
        Online Campground Directory    http://www.camping-usa.com
       Online Giftshop Superstore    http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

  9. Re: Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2001-08-23T13:25:51Z

    Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> writes:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Colin 't Hart wrote:
>> 5. I think Bugzilla's concepts of products, components and versions fit
>> the way we work.
>> I envisage that 'Postgres', 'Interfaces', 'Languages' might be products
>> that we would have.
>> Within 'Postgres' we would have the various subsystems that make up the
>> core.
>> Within 'Interfaces' we would have 'JDBC', 'ODBC' etc.
>> Within 'Languages' we would have 'PL/pgSQL' etc.

> I can see a little benefit to this, but for the most part the same
> people that are working on the core pieces of PostgreSQL are also
> working on the interfaces and languages.

I would argue against subdividing a bug database at all.  I don't think
the project is large enough to require it (we are in no danger of
becoming the size of Mozilla anytime soon).  But more importantly,
subdivision introduces the risk of misclassification of a bug --- and
in my experience the initial reporter of a bug *very* frequently
misidentifies where the problem is.  So unless additional effort is
expended to reclassify bugs (is that even possible in Bugzilla?), the
classification will degenerate to the point of being a hindrance rather
than a help in locating things.  Overall I just don't see that much
benefit from a classification system.

			regards, tom lane

  10. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Alessio Bragadini <alessio@albourne.com> — 2001-08-28T09:13:21Z

    Tom Lane wrote:

> it does seem like a lot of people
> like Bugzilla.  Might be worth at least a cursory look.

We do use Bugzilla and I believe is a very good tool, which should fit
nicely with the open development style of PostgreSQL community. New
version is due in a few weeks and it's been already noted that a
PostgreSQL backend is almost ready. The Bugzilla community is growing
fast, BTW.

-- 
Alessio F. Bragadini		alessio@albourne.com
APL Financial Services		http://village.albourne.com
Nicosia, Cyprus		 	phone: +357-2-755750

"It is more complicated than you think"
		-- The Eighth Networking Truth from RFC 1925

  11. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Alessio Bragadini <alessio@albourne.com> — 2001-08-28T09:18:28Z

    Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> Everybody keeps saying bugzilla.  What EXACTLY will bugzilla do for us
> that would make me want to learn it and install it?  BTW, the current
> wheel was invented a year ago 'cuze nothing really fit what we needed.

I believe the greatest advantage for the PostgreSQL is that a Bugzilla
installation would allow end-users as well as developers to check if a
bug has already been reported, look for existing bugs, submit patches,
add comments, see progress in development. This is very similar to the
open-development style of the core development team.

-- 
Alessio F. Bragadini		alessio@albourne.com
APL Financial Services		http://village.albourne.com
Nicosia, Cyprus		 	phone: +357-2-755750

"It is more complicated than you think"
		-- The Eighth Networking Truth from RFC 1925

  12. Re: bugs - lets call an exterminator!

    Thomas Swan <tswan@olemiss.edu> — 2001-08-29T09:56:20Z

    Tom Lane wrote:

>Vince Vielhaber <vev@michvhf.com> writes:
>
>>On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, Colin 't Hart wrote:
>>
>>>5. I think Bugzilla's concepts of products, components and versions fit
>>>the way we work.
>>>I envisage that 'Postgres', 'Interfaces', 'Languages' might be products
>>>that we would have.
>>>Within 'Postgres' we would have the various subsystems that make up the
>>>core.
>>>Within 'Interfaces' we would have 'JDBC', 'ODBC' etc.
>>>Within 'Languages' we would have 'PL/pgSQL' etc.
>>>
>
>>I can see a little benefit to this, but for the most part the same
>>people that are working on the core pieces of PostgreSQL are also
>>working on the interfaces and languages.
>>
>
>I would argue against subdividing a bug database at all.  I don't think
>the project is large enough to require it (we are in no danger of
>becoming the size of Mozilla anytime soon).  But more importantly,
>subdivision introduces the risk of misclassification of a bug --- and
>in my experience the initial reporter of a bug *very* frequently
>misidentifies where the problem is.  So unless additional effort is
>expended to reclassify bugs (is that even possible in Bugzilla?), the
>classification will degenerate to the point of being a hindrance rather
>than a help in locating things.  Overall I just don't see that much
>benefit from a classification system.
>
Bugzilla does provide for the reclassification bugs.  I have 
misidentified where bugs were in Mozilla and have had them reclassified 
into different areas/components of that project.