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  1. doc: Mention more variant --name=value of -c name=value for postgres

  1. Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-01-13T10:39:50Z

    Hi,

A friend of mine complained about strange behavior of `postgres`. When
executed without any arguments the following error is shown:

```
$ postgres
postgres does not know where to find the server configuration file.
You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation option or set the
PGDATA environment variable.
```

However --config-file is not listed in --help output. Apparently
that's because it's not a regular option but a GUС. It is in fact
supported:

```
$ postgres --config-file=/tmp/fake.txt
postgres: could not access the server configuration file
"/tmp/fake.txt": No such file or directory
```

Additionally --help says:

```
[...]
Please read the documentation for the complete list of run-time
configuration settings and how to set them on the command line or in
the configuration file
```

... which personally I don't find extremely useful to be honest.

OK, let's check section "20.1.4. Parameter Interaction via the Shell"
[1] of the documentation. Currently it doesn't tell anything about the
ability to specify GUCs --like-this, unless I missed something.

Should we remove --config-file from the error message to avoid any
confusion? Should we correct --help output? Should we update the
documentation?

[1]: https://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/config-setting.html#CONFIG-SETTING-SHELL

-- 
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  2. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Nathan Bossart <nathandbossart@gmail.com> — 2024-01-13T22:38:00Z

    On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 01:39:50PM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> OK, let's check section "20.1.4. Parameter Interaction via the Shell"
> [1] of the documentation. Currently it doesn't tell anything about the
> ability to specify GUCs --like-this, unless I missed something.

It appears to be documented for 'postgres' as follows [0]:

	--name=value
		Sets a named run-time parameter; a shorter form of -c.

and similarly within the --help output:

	--NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter

Its documentation also describes this method of specifying parameters in
the 'Examples' section.  The section you refer to calls out "-c", so it is
sort-of indirectly mentioned, but that might be a bit of a generous
assessment.

> Should we remove --config-file from the error message to avoid any
> confusion? Should we correct --help output? Should we update the
> documentation?

It might be worthwhile to update the documentation if it would've helped
prevent confusion here.

Separately, I noticed that this is implemented in postmaster.c by looking
for the '-' option character returned by getopt(), and I'm wondering why
this doesn't use getopt_long() instead.  AFAICT this dates back to the
introduction of GUCs in 6a68f426 (May 2000).

[0] https://www.postgresql.org/docs/devel/app-postgres.html

-- 
Nathan Bossart
Amazon Web Services: https://aws.amazon.com

  3. Postgres and --config-file option

    David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> — 2024-01-14T00:36:41Z

    On Saturday, January 13, 2024, Nathan Bossart <nathandbossart@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 13, 2024 at 01:39:50PM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
>
> > Should we remove --config-file from the error message to avoid any
> > confusion? Should we correct --help output? Should we update the
> > documentation?
>
> It might be worthwhile to update the documentation if it would've helped
> prevent confusion here.
>

Pointing out the long form in the -c definition makes sense.

As for the help message, I’d minimally add:

“You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation …”

I’m fine with the status quo regarding the overview documentation
mentioning both forms.  I also haven’t tested whether PGOPTIONS accepts
both forms or only the -c form as presently documented.  Presently the
—name=value form seems discouraged in favor of -c which I’m ok with and
trying to mention both everywhere seems needlessly verbose.   But I’d be
interested in reviewing against an informed patch improving this area more
broadly than dealing with this single deviant usage.  I do like this
specific usage of the long-form option.

David J.

  4. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-01-15T11:35:27Z

    Hi,

> It might be worthwhile to update the documentation if it would've helped
> prevent confusion here.

> Its documentation also describes this method of specifying parameters in
> the 'Examples' section.

I believe the documentation for 'postgres' already does a decent job
in describing what --NAME=VALUE means, and gives an example. IMO the
actual problem is with --help message and the specific error message.

> Please read the documentation for the complete list of run-time
> configuration settings and how to set them on the command line or in
> the configuration file

Additionally --help message doesn't tell which part of the
documentation should be read specifically. This being said, personally
I don't think that providing specific URLs in the --help message would
be a good idea. This would indicate that the --help message is just
written poorly.

> As for the help message, I’d minimally add:
>
> “You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation …”

Good idea.

PFA the patch. It's short but I think it mitigates the problem.

-- 
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  5. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> — 2024-02-02T21:23:23Z

    On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 4:35 AM Aleksander Alekseev <
aleksander@timescale.com> wrote:

> PFA the patch. It's short but I think it mitigates the problem.
>
>
I took a look at where these options are discussed in the documentation and
now feel that we should make these options clear more broadly (config and
libpq, plus pointing to --name from -c in a couple of places).  It doesn't
add much verbosity and, frankly, if I was to pick one "--name=value" would
win and so I'd rather document it, leaving -c alone for historical reasons.

I've attached a replacement patch with the additional changes.

David J.

  6. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> — 2024-02-02T21:27:54Z

    On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:23 PM David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 4:35 AM Aleksander Alekseev <
> aleksander@timescale.com> wrote:
>
>> PFA the patch. It's short but I think it mitigates the problem.
>>
>>
> I took a look at where these options are discussed in the documentation
> and now feel that we should make these options clear more broadly (config
> and libpq, plus pointing to --name from -c in a couple of places).  It
> doesn't add much verbosity and, frankly, if I was to pick one
> "--name=value" would win and so I'd rather document it, leaving -c alone
> for historical reasons.
>
> I've attached a replacement patch with the additional changes.
>
>
And I just saw one more apparently undocumented requirement (or a typo)

You must specify the --config-file

The actual parameter is "config_file", so apparently we are supposed to
either convert underscores to hyphens or we have a typo.

David J.

  7. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Peter Eisentraut <peter@eisentraut.org> — 2024-02-07T09:58:40Z

    On 02.02.24 22:27, David G. Johnston wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 2:23 PM David G. Johnston 
> <david.g.johnston@gmail.com <mailto:david.g.johnston@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 4:35 AM Aleksander Alekseev
>     <aleksander@timescale.com <mailto:aleksander@timescale.com>> wrote:
> 
>         PFA the patch. It's short but I think it mitigates the problem.
> 
> 
>     I took a look at where these options are discussed in the
>     documentation and now feel that we should make these options clear
>     more broadly (config and libpq, plus pointing to --name from -c in a
>     couple of places).  It doesn't add much verbosity and, frankly, if I
>     was to pick one "--name=value" would win and so I'd rather document
>     it, leaving -c alone for historical reasons.
> 
>     I've attached a replacement patch with the additional changes.
> 
> 
> And I just saw one more apparently undocumented requirement (or a typo)
> 
> You must specify the --config-file
> 
> The actual parameter is "config_file", so apparently we are supposed to 
> either convert underscores to hyphens or we have a typo.

We convert '-' to '_' when parsing long options (see ParseLongOption() 
in guc.c).  So writing the long options with hyphens should generally be 
preferred in documentation.

  8. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-05-14T11:18:33Z

    David, Peter,

> > The actual parameter is "config_file", so apparently we are supposed to
> > either convert underscores to hyphens or we have a typo.
>
> We convert '-' to '_' when parsing long options (see ParseLongOption()
> in guc.c).  So writing the long options with hyphens should generally be
> preferred in documentation.

Thanks for all your great input. Here is the updated patch.


--
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  9. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-05-14T12:03:58Z

    Hi,

> Thanks for all your great input. Here is the updated patch.

Here is the patch v4 with fixed typo ("geoq"). Per off-list feedback
from Alvaro - thanks!

-- 
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  10. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-05-15T02:07:21Z

    On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 03:03:58PM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> Here is the patch v4 with fixed typo ("geoq"). Per off-list feedback
> from Alvaro - thanks!

+       <option>-c name=value</option> command-line parameter, or its equivalent
+       <option>--name=value</option> variation.  For example,
 <programlisting>
-postgres -c log_connections=yes -c log_destination='syslog'
+postgres -c log_connections=yes --log-destination='syslog'

Wow.  I've used -c many times, and never noticed that this was a
supported option switch.  There's always something to learn around
here..

-    printf(_("  -c NAME=VALUE      set run-time parameter\n"));
+    printf(_("  -c NAME=VALUE      set run-time parameter (see also --NAME)\n"));
[...]
-    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter\n"));
+    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter, a shorter form of -c\n"));
[...]
-        to set multiple parameters.
+        to set multiple parameters.  See the <option>--name</option>
+        option below for an alternate syntax.
[...]
-        Sets a named run-time parameter; a shorter form of
-        <option>-c</option>.
+        Sets the named run-time parameter; a shorter form of
+        <option>-c</option>.  See <xref linkend="runtime-config"/>
+        for a listing of parameters.

Not sure that these additions in --help or the docs are necessary.
The rest looks OK.

-    "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation "
+    "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation "

How about "You must specify the --config-file, -c
\"config_file=VALUE\" or -D invocation"?  There is some practice for
--opt=VALUE in .po files.
--
Michael

  11. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Peter Eisentraut <peter@eisentraut.org> — 2024-05-15T09:49:22Z

    On 15.05.24 04:07, Michael Paquier wrote:
> Not sure that these additions in --help or the docs are necessary.
> The rest looks OK.
> 
> -    "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation "
> +    "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation "
> 
> How about "You must specify the --config-file, -c
> \"config_file=VALUE\" or -D invocation"?  There is some practice for
> --opt=VALUE in .po files.

Yeah, some of this is becoming quite unwieldy, if we document and 
mention each spelling variant of each option everywhere.

Maybe if the original problem is that the option --config-file is not 
explicitly in the --help output, let's add it to the --help output?

  12. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> — 2024-05-15T13:35:31Z

    On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 2:49 AM Peter Eisentraut <peter@eisentraut.org>
wrote:

> On 15.05.24 04:07, Michael Paquier wrote:
> > Not sure that these additions in --help or the docs are necessary.
> > The rest looks OK.
> >
> > -    "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation "
> > +    "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D
> invocation "
> >
> > How about "You must specify the --config-file, -c
> > \"config_file=VALUE\" or -D invocation"?  There is some practice for
> > --opt=VALUE in .po files.
>
> Yeah, some of this is becoming quite unwieldy, if we document and
> mention each spelling variant of each option everywhere.
>

Where else would this need to be added that was missed?  Largely we don't
discuss how to bring a setting into effect - rather there is a single
reference area that discusses how, and everywhere else just assumes you
have read it and goes on to name the setting.  On this grounds the
proper fix here is probably to not put the how into the message:

"You must specify the config_file option, the -D argument, or the PGDATA
environment variable."

And this is only unwieldy because while -D and --config-file both can get
to the same result they are not substitutes for each other.  Namely if the
configuration file is not in the data directory, as is the case on Debian,
the choice to use -D is not going to work.

This isn't an error message, I'm not all that worried if we output a wall
of text in lieu of pointing the user to the reference page.


> Maybe if the original problem is that the option --config-file is not
> explicitly in the --help output, let's add it to the --help output?
>
>
I'm not opposed to this.  Though maybe it is sufficient to do:

--NAME=VALUE (e.g., --config-file='...')

I would do this in addition to removing the explicit how of setting
config_file above.

We also don't mention environment variables in the help but that message
refers to PGDATA...so the complaint and fix if done on that basis seems a
bit selective.

David J.

  13. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Jelte Fennema-Nio <postgres@jeltef.nl> — 2024-05-15T14:47:27Z

    On Wed, 15 May 2024 at 11:49, Peter Eisentraut <peter@eisentraut.org> wrote:
> Yeah, some of this is becoming quite unwieldy, if we document and
> mention each spelling variant of each option everywhere.
>
> Maybe if the original problem is that the option --config-file is not
> explicitly in the --help output, let's add it to the --help output?

I definitely think it would be useful to list this --config variant in
more places, imho it's nicer than the -c variant. Especially in the
PGOPTIONS docs it would be useful. People are already using it in the
wild and I regressed on support for that in PgBouncer by accident:
https://github.com/pgbouncer/pgbouncer/pull/1064

  14. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-05-16T00:17:47Z

    On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 04:47:27PM +0200, Jelte Fennema-Nio wrote:
> I definitely think it would be useful to list this --config variant in
> more places, imho it's nicer than the -c variant. Especially in the
> PGOPTIONS docs it would be useful. People are already using it in the
> wild and I regressed on support for that in PgBouncer by accident:
> https://github.com/pgbouncer/pgbouncer/pull/1064

Agreed that mentioning the --name variant is useful.  I'm not really
on board with having one option refer to the other on the pages where
both are described, like on --help or the doc page for "postgres".

For now, I've applied a patch for the libpq.sgml and config.sgml bits
which are improvements of their own.
--
Michael

  15. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-05-16T08:57:10Z

    Hi,

> Agreed that mentioning the --name variant is useful.  I'm not really
> on board with having one option refer to the other on the pages where
> both are described, like on --help or the doc page for "postgres".
>
> For now, I've applied a patch for the libpq.sgml and config.sgml bits
> which are improvements of their own.

Thanks, Michael.

I propose my original v1 patch for correcting the --help output of
'postgres' too. I agree with the above comments that corresponding
changes in v4 became somewhat unwieldy.

-- 
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  16. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-05-16T23:11:17Z

    On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:57:10AM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> I propose my original v1 patch for correcting the --help output of
> 'postgres' too. I agree with the above comments that corresponding
> changes in v4 became somewhat unwieldy.

Thanks for compiling the rest.

-    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter\n"));
+    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter, a shorter form of -c\n"));

This part with cross-references in the output is still meh to me, for
same reason as for the doc changes I've argued to discard upthread.

         write_stderr("%s does not know where to find the server configuration file.\n"
-                     "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation "
+                     "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation "

I can fall behind changing this one, still I'm not sure if this
proposal is the optimal choice.  Adding this option to --help makes
sense when applied to this error message, but that's incomplete in
regard with the other GUCs where this concept applies.  A different
approach would be to do nothing in --help and change the reference of
--config-file to -c config_name=VALUE, which would be in line with
--help.
--
Michael

  17. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    David G. Johnston <david.g.johnston@gmail.com> — 2024-05-16T23:38:28Z

    On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 4:11 PM Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> wrote:

> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:57:10AM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> > I propose my original v1 patch for correcting the --help output of
> > 'postgres' too. I agree with the above comments that corresponding
> > changes in v4 became somewhat unwieldy.
>
> Thanks for compiling the rest.
>
> -    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter\n"));
> +    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter, a shorter form
> of -c\n"));
>
> This part with cross-references in the output is still meh to me, for
> same reason as for the doc changes I've argued to discard upthread.
>

I'm fine with leaving these alone.  If we did change this I'd want to
change both, not just --NAME.


>          write_stderr("%s does not know where to find the server
> configuration file.\n"
> -                     "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation
> "
> +                     "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent
> -c) or -D invocation "
>
>
I would rather just do this:

diff --git a/src/backend/utils/misc/guc.c b/src/backend/utils/misc/guc.c
index 3fb6803998..f827086489 100644
--- a/src/backend/utils/misc/guc.c
+++ b/src/backend/utils/misc/guc.c
@@ -1828,8 +1828,8 @@ SelectConfigFiles(const char *userDoption, const char
*progname)
        else
        {
                write_stderr("%s does not know where to find the server
configuration file.\n"
-                                        "You must specify the
--config-file or -D invocation "
-                                        "option or set the PGDATA
environment variable.\n",
+                                        "You must specify either the
config_file run-time parameter or "
+                                        "provide the database directory\n",
                                         progname);
                return false;
        }

Both "run-time parameter" and "database directory" are words present in the
help and the user can find the correct argument if that is the option they
want to use.  The removal of the mention of the PGDATA environment variable
doesn't seem to be a great loss here.  This error message doesn't seem to
be the correct place to teach the user about all of their options so long
as they choose to read the documentation they learn about them there; and
we need not prescribe the specific means by which they supply either of
those pieces of information - which is the norm.  If someone simply runs
"postgres" at the command line this message and --help gives them
sufficient information to proceed.

David J.

  18. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Alvaro Herrera <alvherre@alvh.no-ip.org> — 2024-05-17T12:02:19Z

    On 2024-May-17, Michael Paquier wrote:

> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:57:10AM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> > I propose my original v1 patch for correcting the --help output of
> > 'postgres' too. I agree with the above comments that corresponding
> > changes in v4 became somewhat unwieldy.
> 
> Thanks for compiling the rest.
> 
> -    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter\n"));
> +    printf(_("  --NAME=VALUE       set run-time parameter, a shorter form of -c\n"));
> 
> This part with cross-references in the output is still meh to me, for
> same reason as for the doc changes I've argued to discard upthread.

Was the idea considered of moving the --NAME=VALUE line to appear
together with -c?  We already do that with "-?, --help" and "-V, --version",
so I think it's pretty reasonable:

Options:
  -B NBUFFERS        number of shared buffers
  -c NAME=VALUE, --NAME=VALUE
                     set run-time parameter
  -C NAME            print value of run-time parameter, then exit
[...]


>          write_stderr("%s does not know where to find the server configuration file.\n"
> -                     "You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation "
> +                     "You must specify the --config-file (or equivalent -c) or -D invocation "

I'd rather change the --help and leave this one alone.


About the final paragraph

	Please read the documentation for the complete list of run-time
	configuration settings and how to set them on the command line or in
	the configuration file.

I was thinking we could mention that using --describe-config here could
help, but the literal output from that is quite ugly and unwieldy, more
suitable for machine consumption than humans.  Would it be useful to add
another output format?  Say, a --describe-config=man prints a
manpage-style table of options with their descriptions and links to the
online manual.

-- 
Álvaro Herrera        Breisgau, Deutschland  —  https://www.EnterpriseDB.com/
"No nos atrevemos a muchas cosas porque son difíciles,
pero son difíciles porque no nos atrevemos a hacerlas" (Séneca)

  19. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> — 2024-05-17T18:04:12Z

    On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 4:57 AM Aleksander Alekseev
<aleksander@timescale.com> wrote:
> I propose my original v1 patch for correcting the --help output of
> 'postgres' too. I agree with the above comments that corresponding
> changes in v4 became somewhat unwieldy.

So, who is it exactly that will be confused by the status quo? I mean,
let's say you get this error:

postgres does not know where to find the server configuration file.
You must specify the --config-file or -D invocation option or set the
PGDATA environment variable.

As I see it, either you know how it works and just made a mistake this
time, or you are a beginner. If it's the former, the fact that the
error message doesn't mention every possible way of solving the
problem does not matter, because you already know how to fix your
mistake. If it's the latter, you don't need to know *every* way to fix
the problem. You just need to know *one* way to fix the problem. I
don't really understand why somebody would look at the existing
message and say "gosh, it didn't tell me that I could also use -c!".
If you already know that, don't you just ignore the hint and get busy
with fixing the problem?

If the reason that somebody is upset is because it's not technically
true to say that you *must* do one of those things, we could fix that
with "You must" -> "You can" or with "You must specify" -> "Specify".
The patch you propose is also not terrible or anything, but it goes in
the direction of listing every alternative, which will become
unpalatable as soon as somebody adds one more way to do it, or maybe
it's unpalatable already.

Even if we don't do that, I don't see that there's a huge problem here.

-- 
Robert Haas
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com

  20. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> — 2024-05-17T18:11:54Z

    Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
> If the reason that somebody is upset is because it's not technically
> true to say that you *must* do one of those things, we could fix that
> with "You must" -> "You can" or with "You must specify" -> "Specify".
> The patch you propose is also not terrible or anything, but it goes in
> the direction of listing every alternative, which will become
> unpalatable as soon as somebody adds one more way to do it, or maybe
> it's unpalatable already.

I agree that it's not necessary or particularly useful for this hint
to be exhaustive.  I could get behind your suggestion of
s/You must specify/Specify/, but I also think it's fine to do nothing.

			regards, tom lane

  21. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander@timescale.com> — 2024-05-20T09:20:02Z

    Hi,

> Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
> > If the reason that somebody is upset is because it's not technically
> > true to say that you *must* do one of those things, we could fix that
> > with "You must" -> "You can" or with "You must specify" -> "Specify".
> > The patch you propose is also not terrible or anything, but it goes in
> > the direction of listing every alternative, which will become
> > unpalatable as soon as somebody adds one more way to do it, or maybe
> > it's unpalatable already.
>
> I agree that it's not necessary or particularly useful for this hint
> to be exhaustive.  I could get behind your suggestion of
> s/You must specify/Specify/, but I also think it's fine to do nothing.

Fair enough, let's leave the help message as is then. I closed the
corresponding CF entry.

-- 
Best regards,
Aleksander Alekseev

  22. Re: Postgres and --config-file option

    Michael Paquier <michael@paquier.xyz> — 2024-05-21T04:43:43Z

    On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 12:20:02PM +0300, Aleksander Alekseev wrote:
> Robert Haas <robertmhaas@gmail.com> writes:
>> I agree that it's not necessary or particularly useful for this hint
>> to be exhaustive.  I could get behind your suggestion of
>> s/You must specify/Specify/, but I also think it's fine to do nothing.
> 
> Fair enough, let's leave the help message as is then. I closed the
> corresponding CF entry.

I'm OK to leave this be, as well.
--
Michael