Horton

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  1. Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Robert Treat <xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> — 2004-08-25T21:09:37Z

    Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server and if
they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72103/wo/oC2xGlPM9M2i3UsLG0f1PaalTlE/0.0.9.1.0.6.13.0.3.1.3.0.7.12.1.1.0


Robert Treat
-- 
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

  2. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> — 2004-08-25T21:22:08Z

    Robert,

> Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server and if
> they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
> know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA

Last I checked Apple was still shipping the XServes with SATA drives and a 
PROMISE controller, both very consumer-grade (and not server-grade) hardware.   
I can't recommend the XServe as a database platform.  SCSI still makes a 
difference for databases, more because of the controllers than anything else.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

  3. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Douglas McNaught <doug@mcnaught.org> — 2004-08-25T22:52:05Z

    Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

> Robert,
>
>> Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server and if
>> they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
>> know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA
>
\> Last I checked Apple was still shipping the XServes with SATA drives
> and a PROMISE controller, both very consumer-grade (and not
> server-grade) hardware.  I can't recommend the XServe as a database
> platform.  SCSI still makes a difference for databases, more because
> of the controllers than anything else.

The XServe RAID is fibre-channel.  

-Doug
-- 
Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
   --T. J. Jackson, 1863

  4. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Ralf Schramm <ralf.schramm@bahn.de> — 2004-08-25T22:58:24Z

    we checked a XServe/XRaid system some months ago and
especially the relation price/space/performance was OK
compared to a HP/Intel maschine. Tomorrow I'll try to
find the performance charts on my harddisc and post the
links to the list. You get a huge amount of raid-space
for a good price.

We plan to get one to do our web-statistics there with
about 150 MegaPageImpressions a month.

Ralf Schramm


Am 25.08.2004 um 23:09 schrieb Robert Treat:

> Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server and  
> if
> they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
> know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA
>
> http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72103/ 
> wo/oC2xGlPM9M2i3UsLG0f1PaalTlE/0.0.9.1.0.6.13.0.3.1.3.0.7.12.1.1.0
>
>
> Robert Treat
> -- 
> Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

  5. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Ralf Schramm <ralf.schramm@bahn.de> — 2004-08-25T23:03:52Z

    the XServe/XRaid comes with FibreChannel

Here some infos:
http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/architecture.html
http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/fibre_channel.html
http://www.apple.com/xserve/architecture.html

Ralf Schramm


Am 25.08.2004 um 23:22 schrieb Josh Berkus:

> Robert,
>
>> Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server and 
>> if
>> they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
>> know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA
>
> Last I checked Apple was still shipping the XServes with SATA drives 
> and a
> PROMISE controller, both very consumer-grade (and not server-grade) 
> hardware.
> I can't recommend the XServe as a database platform.  SCSI still makes 
> a
> difference for databases, more because of the controllers than 
> anything else.
>
> -- 
> Josh Berkus
> Aglio Database Solutions
> San Francisco

  6. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> — 2004-08-25T23:49:02Z

    Guys,

> the XServe/XRaid comes with FibreChannel

I stand corrected.   That should help things some; it makes it more of a small 
tradeoff between performance and storage size for the drives.

-- 
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

  7. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Andrew Rawnsley <ronz@ravensfield.com> — 2004-08-26T12:07:42Z

    Just starting to work with one now, so I'll let people know what I 
find. There has been
some talk that the XServe RAID seems more optimized for streaming 
applications rather than
heavy random-access type applications, which really wouldn't surprise 
me given where they
probably expect to sell most of them (music/film). They gave us a very 
good price break, as
we are in an industry they wanted exposure in (financial services). If 
you want a pile of
storage at a good price point, its certainly worth considering.

The unit itself is built very well, and the admin tools are very good 
(OS X only, though). It and the
cards that come in the XServes use copper SFP cables/connections, which 
is good or
bad depending upon you're point of view. The switch Apple sells off of 
their web site
is a Vixel (recently bought by Emulex).

I have XServes hooked up at the moment, which work fine. My production 
DB machine
is a slackware box, which has tested out fine in initial tests with a 
QLogic HBA and the stock in-kernel
drivers. They're also 'certified' to work with Emulex cards, but IIRC 
Emulex doesn't do copper.
Emulex did open-source their driver code last year (right after I had 
to change an client's install
from my beloved Slack to RHAS because Emulex only had version-specific 
drivers....).

More as it happens.

On Aug 25, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Doug McNaught wrote:

> Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:
>
>> Robert,
>>
>>> Just curious if folks have ever used this for a postgresql server 
>>> and if
>>> they used it with OSX/BSD/Linux. Even if you haven't used it, if you
>>> know of something comparable I'd be interested.  TIA
>>
> \> Last I checked Apple was still shipping the XServes with SATA drives
>> and a PROMISE controller, both very consumer-grade (and not
>> server-grade) hardware.  I can't recommend the XServe as a database
>> platform.  SCSI still makes a difference for databases, more because
>> of the controllers than anything else.
>
> The XServe RAID is fibre-channel.
>
> -Doug
> -- 
> Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
>    --T. J. Jackson, 1863
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of 
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to 
> majordomo@postgresql.org
>
--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com

  8. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Tore Halset <halset@pvv.ntnu.no> — 2004-08-26T15:13:24Z

    On Aug 26, 2004, at 14:07, Andrew Rawnsley wrote:

> The unit itself is built very well, and the admin tools are very good 
> (OS X only, though). It and the

The admin tools are supposed to work cross platform. From Apples 
website: "This Java-based application provides an intuitive interface 
for creating protected storage volumes, managing preferences and 
monitoring storage hardware from any virtually any networked computer 
over TCP/IP. That means you don’t have to use a Mac to administer your 
deployment, though, we’d like you to, of course."

http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/management.html

Regards,
  - Tore.

  9. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Andrew Rawnsley <ronz@ravensfield.com> — 2004-08-26T17:40:41Z

    Oops. My bad.

They must really want to sell those things if they're making them 
completely platform independent...

On Aug 26, 2004, at 11:13 AM, Tore Halset wrote:

> On Aug 26, 2004, at 14:07, Andrew Rawnsley wrote:
>
>> The unit itself is built very well, and the admin tools are very good 
>> (OS X only, though). It and the
>
> The admin tools are supposed to work cross platform. From Apples 
> website: "This Java-based application provides an intuitive interface 
> for creating protected storage volumes, managing preferences and 
> monitoring storage hardware from any virtually any networked computer 
> over TCP/IP. That means you don’t have to use a Mac to administer your 
> deployment, though, we’d like you to, of course."
>
> http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/management.html
>
> Regards,
>  - Tore.
>
> ---------------------------(end of 
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to 
> majordomo@postgresql.org
>
--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com

  10. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Kevin Barnard <kbarnard@speedfc.com> — 2004-08-26T19:06:32Z

    Actually you are both are right and wrong.  The XRaid uses FibreChannel 
to communicate to the host machine(s).  The Raid controller is a 
FibreChannel controller.  After that there is a FibreChannel to UltraATA 
conversion for each drive, separate ATA bus for each drive.

What I am curious about is if this setup gets around ATA fsync problems, 
where the drive reports the write before it is actually performed.


Josh Berkus wrote:

>Guys,
>
>  
>
>>the XServe/XRaid comes with FibreChannel
>>    
>>
>
>I stand corrected.   That should help things some; it makes it more of a small 
>tradeoff between performance and storage size for the drives.
>
>  
>

-- 
Kevin Barnard
Speed Fulfillment and Call Center
kbarnard@speedfc.com
214-258-0120

  11. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Douglas McNaught <doug@mcnaught.org> — 2004-08-26T19:54:04Z

    Kevin Barnard <kbarnard@speedfc.com> writes:

>    Actually you are both are right and wrong.  The XRaid uses
>    FibreChannel to communicate to the host machine(s).  The Raid
>    controller is a FibreChannel controller.  After that there is a
>    FibreChannel to UltraATA conversion for each drive, separate ATA bus
>    for each drive.
>    What I am curious about is if this setup gets around ATA fsync
>    problems, where the drive reports the write before it is actually
>    performed.

Good point.

(a) The FC<->ATA unit hopefully has a battery-backed cache, which
    would make the whole thing more robust against power loss.
(b) Since Apple is the vendor for the drive units, they can buy ATA
    drives that don't lie about cache flushes.  Whether they do or not
    is definitely a question.  ;)

-Doug
-- 
Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
   --T. J. Jackson, 1863

  12. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Alan Stange <stange@rentec.com> — 2004-08-26T20:01:15Z

    Doug McNaught wrote:

>Kevin Barnard <kbarnard@speedfc.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>   Actually you are both are right and wrong.  The XRaid uses
>>   FibreChannel to communicate to the host machine(s).  The Raid
>>   controller is a FibreChannel controller.  After that there is a
>>   FibreChannel to UltraATA conversion for each drive, separate ATA bus
>>   for each drive.
>>   What I am curious about is if this setup gets around ATA fsync
>>   problems, where the drive reports the write before it is actually
>>   performed.
>>    
>>
>
>Good point.
>
>(a) The FC<->ATA unit hopefully has a battery-backed cache, which
>    would make the whole thing more robust against power loss.
>(b) Since Apple is the vendor for the drive units, they can buy ATA
>    drives that don't lie about cache flushes.  Whether they do or not
>    is definitely a question.  ;)
>  
>

FYI:    http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/pdf/tn1040.pdf   a tech 
note on write cache flushing.

A bit dated now, but perhaps some other tech note from Apple has more 
recent information.

-- Alan

  13. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Andrew Rawnsley <ronz@ravensfield.com> — 2004-08-26T20:12:06Z

    On Aug 26, 2004, at 3:54 PM, Doug McNaught wrote:

> Kevin Barnard <kbarnard@speedfc.com> writes:
>
>>    Actually you are both are right and wrong.  The XRaid uses
>>    FibreChannel to communicate to the host machine(s).  The Raid
>>    controller is a FibreChannel controller.  After that there is a
>>    FibreChannel to UltraATA conversion for each drive, separate ATA 
>> bus
>>    for each drive.
>>    What I am curious about is if this setup gets around ATA fsync
>>    problems, where the drive reports the write before it is actually
>>    performed.
>
> Good point.
>
> (a) The FC<->ATA unit hopefully has a battery-backed cache, which
>     would make the whole thing more robust against power loss.

Each controller is battery backed (pretty beefy batteries too). 
Actually, they are optional,
but if you spend the money for the unit and leave off the battery you 
should
have your head examined.


> (b) Since Apple is the vendor for the drive units, they can buy ATA
>     drives that don't lie about cache flushes.  Whether they do or not
>     is definitely a question.  ;)

Given what they charge for them I would like to think so...but who 
knows...

The ones in mine are from Hitachi, model #HDS722525VLAT80.

>
> -Doug
> -- 
> Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
>    --T. J. Jackson, 1863
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of 
> broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to 
> majordomo@postgresql.org
>
--------------------

Andrew Rawnsley
President
The Ravensfield Digital Resource Group, Ltd.
(740) 587-0114
www.ravensfield.com

  14. Re: Anyone familiar with Apple Xserve RAID

    Vivek Khera <khera@kcilink.com> — 2004-08-27T20:34:29Z

    >>>>> "JB" == Josh Berkus <josh@agliodbs.com> writes:

JB> Guys,
>> the XServe/XRaid comes with FibreChannel

JB> I stand corrected.  That should help things some; it makes it more
JB> of a small tradeoff between performance and storage size for the
JB> drives.


it is fibre channel to the host.  the internals are still IDE drives
with possibly multiple controllers inside the enclosure.

-- 
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Internet: khera@kciLink.com       Rockville, MD  +1-301-869-4449 x806
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