Thread

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-04T18:47:03Z

I've put this back into pgsq-general@postgresql.org, mainly because I
think ppl are taking me *far* too seriously over this...

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:

> If PostgreSQL is not planning to work with Linux, by all means please let
> me know so I can switch back to MySQL without wasting any more time. I
> would prefer to stick with PostgreSQL based on what I have seen thus far.
> Somebody did an excellent job on the postgresql-6.3.2-4 RPM, and
> PostgreSQL is more stable than MySQL, for instance.

	PostgreSQL does, and *always* will work with Linux...Thomas
Lockhart is one of the core developers on this project, and is totally
committed to Linux (we've even offered to pay for the therapy treatments,
but he wouldn't budge *rofl*)

	Linux users, in general, tend to be the easiest to poke fun at,
most often because they are the fastest to react, and, well, I enjoy it.
I also acknowledge (and have for a long time now) that Linux has provided
some dramatic advances in "the war against MicroSloth"...it has, and
continue to, evolve into viable alternative.  

	The one thing that I really do dislike about the Linux-camp is
that, as far as software is concerned, they are generally
self-centered...and that "beef" has more to do with the Wine project then
anything.  They constantly throw code in that is Linux-centric that breaks
everything for anyone else.

	Here, our focus is on stability on *all* the platforms we list as
supported, and as long as someone is using it on that platform, we try to
keep it that way...

> I have noticed this list has not provided effective support to PostgreSQL
> beginners - not just myself, but others. 

	What exactly is "effective support"?  The support on these lists
is that given by other users of the system, there is no any one person
that knows all the answers or has the time to answer all the questions.
There are some questions that are asked over and over again, when if ppl
took the time to read the FAQ, they would see it.  

	How many ppl actually read the documentation before posting the
question?  Posting is faster, generally, then hoping its in the FAQ or the
manuals...

	Lists are meant to be "self-help"...my general day right now is
spent, more often then not, scanning through the subjects, reading those
postings that look like something that I'm a) interested in or b) know the
answer to.  If I see a posting with the subject ODBC in the SQL list, I
just delete it...its not related and I don't have *that* much time in my
day.

> Finally, since I've already rambled on too much, let me suggest that a
> logo, or lack of a logo, doesn't significantly influence the adoption of
> your product. You need to capture the mindshare of the developers who
> would build on top of your product, which is best done by making our lives
> easier. At this point, early in my PostgreSQL experience, I would say
> documentation is your weak suit.

	Have you looked at what is included in v6.3.2?

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-04T19:00:38Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> 
> I've put this back into pgsq-general@postgresql.org, mainly because I
> think ppl are taking me *far* too seriously over this...
> 
> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:
> 
> > If PostgreSQL is not planning to work with Linux, by all means please let
> > me know so I can switch back to MySQL without wasting any more time. I

> 	PostgreSQL does, and *always* will work with Linux...Thomas
> Lockhart is one of the core developers on this project, and is totally
> committed to Linux (we've even offered to pay for the therapy treatments,
> but he wouldn't budge *rofl*)

Ah, but Marc, there's a problem here.  Most *serious* linuxers scoff at
RedHat types like Tom Lockhart.  While he is truly a nice guy (bailed
me out a few times) he is not allowed into penguin heaven...that is 
reserved for slackers like me-self...  ;-)

Don't let anyone tell you that a non-Slackware user is a real Linux user.
(Not even Michael M - he uses `Little Debbie', a clear case of heresy.) 

TFIC,  
Tom


===================================================================
		User Guide Dog Database Project
===================================================================
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  C/Perl:              Paul Anderson <paul@geeky1.ebtech.net>
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Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Bruce Tong <zztong@laxmi.ev.net> — 1998-06-04T19:02:51Z

> I've put this back into pgsq-general@postgresql.org, mainly because I
> think ppl are taking me *far* too seriously over this...

Like I said in an earlier part of my note, I'm new to this list and I
don't have a good idea of the ground rules here. I thought it best to go
private, but okay public then. ;)

> 	PostgreSQL does, and *always* will work with Linux.

Great. Thanks for clearing that up.

> > I have noticed this list has not provided effective support to PostgreSQL
> > beginners - not just myself, but others. 
> 
> 	What exactly is "effective support"?

I have noticed a number of seemingly beginning questions go unanswered.
Perhaps they were answered by direct mail. If so, I stand corrected.

> 	How many ppl actually read the documentation before posting the
> question?  Posting is faster, generally, then hoping its in the FAQ or the
> manuals...

I can't answer that, and you know it. In my case, I've read everything I
can find. I just got v6.3.2 so maybe theres a few I haven't found yet. If
I ask a question answered in the docs, please point it out, just don't
ignore the question. I'm happy to do the research.

> 	Lists are meant to be "self-help"...my general day right now is
> spent, more often then not, scanning through the subjects, reading those
> postings that look like something that I'm a) interested in or b) know the
> answer to.  If I see a posting with the subject ODBC in the SQL list, I
> just delete it...its not related and I don't have *that* much time in my
> day.

I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.

> > Finally, since I've already rambled on too much, let me suggest that a
> > logo, or lack of a logo, doesn't significantly influence the adoption of
> > your product. You need to capture the mindshare of the developers who
> > would build on top of your product, which is best done by making our lives
> > easier. At this point, early in my PostgreSQL experience, I would say
> > documentation is your weak suit.
> 
> 	Have you looked at what is included in v6.3.2?

Yes. As I said before, I've read everything I can find. That doesn't mean
it all made sense at first to me or that there aren't holes. This is my
first foray into SQL databases and database administration and I'm certain
I'm missing all sorts of details.


Bruce Tong
Systems Programmer
Electronic Vision / FITNE

mailto: zztong@laxmi.ev.net
http://www.ev.net/fitne

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Bruce Tong <zztong@laxmi.ev.net> — 1998-06-04T20:32:20Z

> Bruce - I have, being generally obnoxious and pushy, asked for a newbie
> list for people like me-self: slow on the uptake but persistent.
> I have heard nothing back, except from Jose who liked the idea and 
> apparently was willing to serve as a dispenser of info (which he does
> very well.)

I would use the list if it existed. If it is not created, then we can make
a private list. I've got a majordomo running we can use, but it wouldn't
be officially part of the PostgreSQL effort, of course.

A Linux-PostgreSQL support group.


Bruce Tong
Systems Programmer
Electronic Vision / FITNE

mailto: zztong@laxmi.ev.net
http://www.ev.net/fitne

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-04T20:42:50Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:

> > > I have noticed this list has not provided effective support to PostgreSQL
> > > beginners - not just myself, but others. 
> > 	What exactly is "effective support"?
> I have noticed a number of seemingly beginning questions go unanswered.
> Perhaps they were answered by direct mail. If so, I stand corrected.

Bruce - I have, being generally obnoxious and pushy, asked for a newbie
list for people like me-self: slow on the uptake but persistent.
I have heard nothing back, except from Jose who liked the idea and 
apparently was willing to serve as a dispenser of info (which he does
very well.)

I would love such a list and would be willing to do whatever it takes,
workwise, to make it a reality.  Scrappy!?  Is this possible? 

> > 	How many ppl actually read the documentation before posting the
> I can't answer that, and you know it. In my case, I've read everything I
> can find. I just got v6.3.2 so maybe theres a few I haven't found yet. If
> I ask a question answered in the docs, please point it out, just don't
> ignore the question. I'm happy to do the research.

I read and re=read and even re-read but have had to basically d.i.y.
except for some help from Tom (Linux questions) and Michael (major source
of help for ecpg.)  My questions are painfully-newbie and belong on a
separate list...

> > 	Lists are meant to be "self-help"...my general day right now is
> > spent, more often then not, scanning through the subjects, reading those
> I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
> the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.

I'm willing to work!  Dang it - I'm willing to help. Bruce, you willing
to help if we can convince pgsql.org to let it transpire?  

> > > easier. At this point, early in my PostgreSQL experience, I would say
> > > documentation is your weak suit.
> > 	Have you looked at what is included in v6.3.2?
> 
> Yes. As I said before, I've read everything I can find. That doesn't mean
> it all made sense at first to me or that there aren't holes. This is my
> first foray into SQL databases and database administration and I'm certain
> I'm missing all sorts of details.

Bruce - I have a tgz file that you can download if you're interested
in what I have been able to do with perl/pgsql:
www.panix.com/~ugd

It's primitive but it works...there is a readme and links to archives
(for perl modules), examples of code, and so on...handy stuff. 
Let me know if I can help in any way! 

Cheers,
Tom


===================================================================
		User Guide Dog Database Project
===================================================================
  Project Coordinator:  Peter J. Puckall <ppuckall@cableregina.com>
  Programmers:            
  C/Perl:              Paul Anderson <paul@geeky1.ebtech.net>
  SQL/Perl:            Tom Good <tomg@q8.nrnet.org>
  HTML:                Chris House <csh@geocities.com>
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  Perl:                Mike List <troll@net-link.net>
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===================================================================
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===================================================================

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Bruce Tong <zztong@laxmi.ev.net> — 1998-06-04T20:51:43Z

> > I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
> > the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.
> 
> 	Like?  I find the signal-noise ratio here to be very high, as
> well as anwered *generally* very quickly and accurately compared to other
> lists...

Oh, the RedHat list comes to mind. I get some 200 messages a day off that
one and I depend on the subject line to pick out the threads. Most of the
time the archive is searchable too, which really helps.

> > Yes. As I said before, I've read everything I can find. That doesn't mean
> > it all made sense at first to me or that there aren't holes. This is my
> > first foray into SQL databases and database administration and I'm certain
> > I'm missing all sorts of details.
> 
> 	Suggestion: provide feedback on what doesn't make sense or appears
> to be missing...

I'm keeping a journal. Here's a trend...

The docs say in a paragraph of text use "createuser" to create a new
postgres user. Questions which came to my mind, and which I have
mostly resolved all had to do with finding what is a good convention
for creating these users and what types of access require a user? Does a
person connecting via MS Access need to be a user. Can multiple people
share and is that a good idea? Is it a good idea to use the same name as
the login name, or is there a reason to use another name? Oddly enough,
the single most time consuming thing to figure out was that there was an
account on my system called "postgres" which had to be used to issue the
command.

I'm using the PostgreSQL package which was nicely organized, configured,
and installed by Red Hat via an RPM file (software package) which was set
up by somebody - I haven't looked for the name yet. Anyways, it has become
apparent to me if I would have done all the installation myself I would
probably have learned all this stuff. The docs which came with the RPM are
a concatenation of every FAQ dealing with PostgreSQL essentially flooding
me with information 99% of which I'm not ready for and some of which is
no longer valid. The web stuff is easier to use but far more general.

I'm sad to say I know a number of my questions are probably not
appropriate for this list and certainly aren't exciting to you guys who
probably want to be asked wonderfully complex SQL questions. I hope to be
able to pose those questions someday. In the meantime, I'll be jumping for
joy when my C++ program succeeds in using LIBPQ to retrieve some data from
my measly one-table database. And it will certainly be time for a brew
when the guy downstairs using MS Access can work with that poor little
table as well.

This is fun, however, and I'm glad work has presented me with a break long
enough to play with it.


Bruce Tong
Systems Programmer
Electronic Vision / FITNE

mailto: zztong@laxmi.ev.net
http://www.ev.net/fitne

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-04T21:03:12Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:

> > I've put this back into pgsq-general@postgresql.org, mainly because I
> > think ppl are taking me *far* too seriously over this...
> 
> Like I said in an earlier part of my note, I'm new to this list and I
> don't have a good idea of the ground rules here. I thought it best to go
> private, but okay public then. ;)

	Most things I prefer public, mainly because if one person has the
concern and is voicing it, chances are there are many others with the same
concern taht are staying silent...:)  I like to answer once :)

> > 	What exactly is "effective support"?
> 
> I have noticed a number of seemingly beginning questions go unanswered.
> Perhaps they were answered by direct mail. If so, I stand corrected.

	Its possible that it went unanswered...its supposed to be the
users helping the users, so if none of the users answer, th equestion goes
unanswered...

> I can't answer that, and you know it. In my case, I've read everything I
> can find. I just got v6.3.2 so maybe theres a few I haven't found yet. If
> I ask a question answered in the docs, please point it out, just don't
> ignore the question. I'm happy to do the research.

	Understood, but most times its just easier to answer the question
right and ignore the pointer to the docs...

> I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
> the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.

	Like?  I find the signal-noise ratio here to be very high, as
well as anwered *generally* very quickly and accurately compared to other
lists...

> Yes. As I said before, I've read everything I can find. That doesn't mean
> it all made sense at first to me or that there aren't holes. This is my
> first foray into SQL databases and database administration and I'm certain
> I'm missing all sorts of details.

	Suggestion: provide feedback on what doesn't make sense or appears
to be missing...

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-04T21:07:16Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tom Good wrote:

> Bruce - I have, being generally obnoxious and pushy, asked for a newbie
> list for people like me-self: slow on the uptake but persistent.
> I have heard nothing back, except from Jose who liked the idea and 
> apparently was willing to serve as a dispenser of info (which he does
> very well.)
> 
> I would love such a list and would be willing to do whatever it takes,
> workwise, to make it a reality.  Scrappy!?  Is this possible? 

	We have three lists right now dedicated to the users, period...I'm
confused as to how splitting off YAL (yet another list) will help
anything, other then confuse ppl as to where they should be posting...

> > > 	Lists are meant to be "self-help"...my general day right now is
> > > spent, more often then not, scanning through the subjects, reading those
> > I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
> > the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.
> 
> I'm willing to work!  Dang it - I'm willing to help. Bruce, you willing
> to help if we can convince pgsql.org to let it transpire?  

	Why are you attributing the above to Bruce?  It was me that said
it :)


Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-04T21:42:15Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tom Good wrote:
> > 
> > I would love such a list and would be willing to do whatever it takes,
> > workwise, to make it a reality.  Scrappy!?  Is this possible? 
> 
> 	We have three lists right now dedicated to the users, period...I'm
> confused as to how splitting off YAL (yet another list) will help
> anything, other then confuse ppl as to where they should be posting...

Marc -

I dunno, but I doubt anyone would be confused by where to post if the 
list was called:     newbie-pgsql@hub.org

I generally post newbie questions elsewhere: LUST (not a libidinous
list, actually, linux user support team ;-) , UGD (we are the blind
leading the blind but have some talented C and Perl guys), and
dbi-fugue.

I don't post to pgsql as I feel it is a waste of time for the developers
to read of my misadventures...and I would offer to respond to any newbie
question, even if only to offer links to sites that *may* help.
The thing is this:  I don't want to clog up the development lists
(and I see the GENERAL list as a bit above rookie questions.)
But I would like to talk shop with others in the same pickle as me.  ;-)

> > > > 	Lists are meant to be "self-help"...my general day right now is
> > > > spent, more often then not, scanning through the subjects, reading those
> > > I understand, and I'm not picking on a specific person here. I know that's
> > > the way it is. Perhaps I'm spoiled by other lists.
> > 
> > I'm willing to work!  Dang it - I'm willing to help. Bruce, you willing
> > to help if we can convince pgsql.org to let it transpire?  
> 
> 	Why are you attributing the above to Bruce?  It was me that said
> it :)

I'm not, as I see it:  >>>> is Bruce, >>> is yerself.
Of course, I am also fond of talkin to myself...hee hee.

Have a good one, Marc, I'm off to other tasks.  I do plan to mess
around with Print Shop this evening...you got a fax machine for my
brochure?  It will deal with what we do here as far as getting donated
hardware and using free but top shelf software - - - this will sit in
acrylic frames on my table at the expo...I look forward to having a 
peek at your pdf file.  BTW, I really like the flaming logo even tho
it sez: version 6.1...    (www.panix.com/~ugd/dbindex.html -
I lifted it from some German colleagues.) 

I think the fire is simple but very effective and we have it stuck on 
a black background.

Cheers,
Tom

===================================================================
		User Guide Dog Database Project
===================================================================
  Project Coordinator:  Peter J. Puckall <ppuckall@cableregina.com>
  Programmers:            
  C/Perl:              Paul Anderson <paul@geeky1.ebtech.net>
  SQL/Perl:            Tom Good <tomg@q8.nrnet.org>
  HTML:                Chris House <csh@geocities.com>
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  Perl:                Mike List <troll@net-link.net>
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===================================================================
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===================================================================

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-04T21:46:52Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:

> > Bruce - I have, being generally obnoxious and pushy, asked for a newbie
> > list for people like me-self: slow on the uptake but persistent.
> > I have heard nothing back, except from Jose who liked the idea and 
> > apparently was willing to serve as a dispenser of info (which he does
> > very well.)
> 
> I would use the list if it existed. If it is not created, then we can make
> a private list. I've got a majordomo running we can use, but it wouldn't
> be officially part of the PostgreSQL effort, of course.
> 
> A Linux-PostgreSQL support group.

Bruce - check out www.panix.com/~ugd (the ugd mailing list is now almost
exclusively devoted to running postgres on linux, except for one fella
who is currently struggling with uugetty...)  It is very young and early
but we are making headway!

We could sure use your help, guy.  Maybe Marc would be willing to make
us the sort of unofficial-official blacksheep list?  I could live with
that!  ;-) 

Tom

> Bruce Tong
> Systems Programmer
> Electronic Vision / FITNE
> 
> mailto: zztong@laxmi.ev.net
> http://www.ev.net/fitne
> 
> 

Cheers,
Tom


===================================================================
		User Guide Dog Database Project
===================================================================
  Project Coordinator:  Peter J. Puckall <ppuckall@cableregina.com>
  Programmers:            
  C/Perl:              Paul Anderson <paul@geeky1.ebtech.net>
  SQL/Perl:            Tom Good <tomg@q8.nrnet.org>
  HTML:                Chris House <csh@geocities.com>
  SQL/Perl:            Phil R. Lawrence <prl2@lehigh.edu>  
  Perl:                Mike List <troll@net-link.net>
  Progress 4GL:        Robert March <rmarch@hawk.igs.net>
===================================================================
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===================================================================

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Ken McGlothlen <mcglk@serv.net> — 1998-06-04T21:59:22Z

The Hermit Hacker wrote:

| We have three lists right now dedicated to the users, period...

It's been awfully hard to tell lately.  Far too many threads are getting sent
to both -general and -hackers, and I get to see most messages twice.  It's a
bit bothersome.

						---Ken
						   (sending to ONE list)

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> — 1998-06-04T22:09:55Z

> > I'm willing to work!  Dang it - I'm willing to help. Bruce, you willing
> > to help if we can convince pgsql.org to let it transpire?  
> 
> 	Why are you attributing the above to Bruce?  It was me that said
> it :)

It was another Bruce.

-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
maillist@candle.pha.pa.us              |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (610) 353-9879(w)
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (610) 853-3000(h)

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-05T02:21:55Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Ken McGlothlen wrote:

> The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> | We have three lists right now dedicated to the users, period...
> 
> It's been awfully hard to tell lately.  Far too many threads are getting sent
> to both -general and -hackers, and I get to see most messages twice.  It's a
> bit bothersome.

	The mailing lists are meant to be self-policing...everyone should
be responsible for removing irrelevant lists from the CC and TO
lines...*shrug*

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-05T02:28:47Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tom Good wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:
> 
> > > Bruce - I have, being generally obnoxious and pushy, asked for a newbie
> > > list for people like me-self: slow on the uptake but persistent.
> > > I have heard nothing back, except from Jose who liked the idea and 
> > > apparently was willing to serve as a dispenser of info (which he does
> > > very well.)
> > 
> > I would use the list if it existed. If it is not created, then we can make
> > a private list. I've got a majordomo running we can use, but it wouldn't
> > be officially part of the PostgreSQL effort, of course.
> > 
> > A Linux-PostgreSQL support group.
> 
> Bruce - check out www.panix.com/~ugd (the ugd mailing list is now almost
> exclusively devoted to running postgres on linux, except for one fella
> who is currently struggling with uugetty...)  It is very young and early
> but we are making headway!
> 
> We could sure use your help, guy.  Maybe Marc would be willing to make
> us the sort of unofficial-official blacksheep list?  I could live with
> that!  ;-) 

Ack...spreading out the lists is only going to make this worse, not better
:(

Want to make some suggestions on list names?  pgsql-newbie I know of, and
if you *really* think its required, I'll work it up tomorrow...do we want
OS specific lists though? pgsql-admin-linux? *raised eyebrow*

Maybe I should create a totally seperate list for this, but if anyone has
suggestions for improving support (improvements to the WWW site, better
descriptions of lists, etc), *please* feel free to speak up.  If it is
something that you want me to split off a list (pgsql-chat?) for, I'll
create it...it doesn't take any more resources for me to run 6 lists, or
20 lists...the hard part is keeping ppl informed and organized (ie.
prevent posting the wrong thing to the wrong lists)...

Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> — 1998-06-05T02:44:46Z

> Maybe I should create a totally seperate list for this, but if anyone has
> suggestions for improving support (improvements to the WWW site, better
> descriptions of lists, etc), *please* feel free to speak up.  If it is
> something that you want me to split off a list (pgsql-chat?) for, I'll
> create it...it doesn't take any more resources for me to run 6 lists, or
> 20 lists...the hard part is keeping ppl informed and organized (ie.
> prevent posting the wrong thing to the wrong lists)...

irc channel?

-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
maillist@candle.pha.pa.us              |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (610) 353-9879(w)
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (610) 853-3000(h)

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-05T09:39:17Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> Ack...spreading out the lists is only going to make this worse, not better

OK...bad idea, I'll drop it.

> Want to make some suggestions on list names?  pgsql-newbie I know of, and
> if you *really* think its required, I'll work it up tomorrow...do we want
> OS specific lists though? pgsql-admin-linux? *raised eyebrow*

Well, as long as the list keeps the BSD types in their place it
works for me.  (Just kidding!  You guys can't help it you're so
rigid as regards change...hee hee...very tongue in cheek...not
serious...and so on...)  Linux and BSD peacefully coexisting, 
imagine that!  As long as Debian is excluded, of course.  ;-) 

I don't think we need OS specific...just somewhere for the new guys to
post questions that will get answered, even if the answer is only:
`C'mon guy, you really should plug the thing in before you press the
on button...'

Marc - I know this is a hassle and I know we have a multiplicity of
lists already but I really do see a need for a user orientation list.

I would hope we could get some ringers on it (Constantin, Jose, Tom, etc.)
If there is something I could do to assist, let me know.  It might
keep me out of trouble!

As regards Bruce (M's) irc idea - yeah, ok, but I wouldn't really use it.
The real issue is the creation of a forum for newbies to state without
reservation, in the most inarticulate manner, the problem at hand.
(In my case: which is the doggone `anykey'?)

PostgreSQL is a great product (I like Bruce M's description by the way)
but as it grows there will be more and more newbies...

> 20 lists...the hard part is keeping ppl informed and organized (ie.
> prevent posting the wrong thing to the wrong lists)...

I'm willing to do whatever I can to help with the mundane administrative
piece...

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-05T12:54:39Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Maybe I should create a totally seperate list for this, but if anyone has
> > suggestions for improving support (improvements to the WWW site, better
> > descriptions of lists, etc), *please* feel free to speak up.  If it is
> > something that you want me to split off a list (pgsql-chat?) for, I'll
> > create it...it doesn't take any more resources for me to run 6 lists, or
> > 20 lists...the hard part is keeping ppl informed and organized (ie.
> > prevent posting the wrong thing to the wrong lists)...
> 
> irc channel?

	Its already there, has been for ages, and I'm always on it (if not
always there)...EFNet, channel #PostgreSQL

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> — 1998-06-05T21:08:55Z

> 
> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > > Maybe I should create a totally seperate list for this, but if anyone has
> > > suggestions for improving support (improvements to the WWW site, better
> > > descriptions of lists, etc), *please* feel free to speak up.  If it is
> > > something that you want me to split off a list (pgsql-chat?) for, I'll
> > > create it...it doesn't take any more resources for me to run 6 lists, or
> > > 20 lists...the hard part is keeping ppl informed and organized (ie.
> > > prevent posting the wrong thing to the wrong lists)...
> > 
> > irc channel?
> 
> 	Its already there, has been for ages, and I'm always on it (if not
> always there)...EFNet, channel #PostgreSQL
> 


Let me add this to the FAQ, right now.

-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
maillist@candle.pha.pa.us              |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (610) 353-9879(w)
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (610) 853-3000(h)

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org> — 1998-06-06T03:12:45Z

On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Tom Good wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I've put this back into pgsq-general@postgresql.org, mainly because I
> > think ppl are taking me *far* too seriously over this...
> > 
> > On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Bruce Tong wrote:
> > 
> > > If PostgreSQL is not planning to work with Linux, by all means please let
> > > me know so I can switch back to MySQL without wasting any more time. I
> 
> > 	PostgreSQL does, and *always* will work with Linux...Thomas
> > Lockhart is one of the core developers on this project, and is totally
> > committed to Linux (we've even offered to pay for the therapy treatments,
> > but he wouldn't budge *rofl*)
> 
> Ah, but Marc, there's a problem here.  Most *serious* linuxers scoff at
> RedHat types like Tom Lockhart.  

	Geez, no wonder Linux'rs can't play nice with other OSs...they
can't handle playing nice with each other *grin*


Marc G. Fournier                                
Systems Administrator @ hub.org 
primary: scrappy@hub.org           secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Thomas Good <tomg@nrnet.org> — 1998-06-06T11:39:00Z

On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:

> > Ah, but Marc, there's a problem here.  Most *serious* linuxers scoff at
> > RedHat types like Tom Lockhart.  
> 
> 	Geez, no wonder Linux'rs can't play nice with other OSs...they
> can't handle playing nice with each other *grin*

The bad boy attitude is definitely a problem.  ;-)

Say Marc,

1) I am working up the expo brochure for my shop - which mentions
postgresql as the major component (along with slackware) of the MIS 
solution here...can I fax it to the number listed on the page for cd
subs?  BTW, my fax is 718-354-5056...

2) Did Bruce (M) ever settle on a slogan (Mine is in my sig ;-) ??

3) About the list - since the pseudo-debate (BSD v. Linux) began
I've been receiving mail stating that a newbie list would be a good
thing.  Is this idea d.o.a.?  If so, I'll move on...

4) BTW, we have PostgreSQL binaries compiled on slack boxes (proven
to run fine on vers 3.1 - 3.4) available:  www.ugd.com/~ugd/code.html
We did this as the RedHat RPM thing eludes those of us who have never
messed with it.  Are you interested in mentioning this at postgresql.org?
We also have links to Edmund's DBD-Pg module and Tim Bunce's DBI driver
for Perl heads.  For whatever reason, sunsite-usa lags behind it's
euro counterparts in offering recent releases.  For example, postgres
on sunsite is still sitting at 6.2.  Similarly, DBD-Pg-0.69 and newer
are not available from CPAN here in the states.  I go to the sunsite
uk page.

5) glibc - this is *not* included in slackware...
Could it be due to parse errors generated by the /usr/include files?

6) I *really* dislike that d*mn penguin...they shoulda let Tim O'Reilly
pick the animal.  Maybe an arachnid?  Hmm...

7) Shameless gratuitous advertising for PostgreSQL follows:
===================================================================
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                      PostgreSQL 6.3.2 
       * Advanced Database Design - Proven Performance *
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               Perl 5.004 / DBI-0.91::DBD-PG-0.69 
===================================================================
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===================================================================

Re: [GENERAL] Re: [HACKERS] NEW POSTGRESQL LOGOS

Bruce Momjian <maillist@candle.pha.pa.us> — 1998-06-06T15:27:44Z

> 
> On Sat, 6 Jun 1998, The Hermit Hacker wrote:
> 
> > > Ah, but Marc, there's a problem here.  Most *serious* linuxers scoff at
> > > RedHat types like Tom Lockhart.  
> > 
> > 	Geez, no wonder Linux'rs can't play nice with other OSs...they
> > can't handle playing nice with each other *grin*
> 
> The bad boy attitude is definitely a problem.  ;-)
> 
> Say Marc,
> 
> 1) I am working up the expo brochure for my shop - which mentions
> postgresql as the major component (along with slackware) of the MIS 
> solution here...can I fax it to the number listed on the page for cd
> subs?  BTW, my fax is 718-354-5056...
> 
> 2) Did Bruce (M) ever settle on a slogan (Mine is in my sig ;-) ??

No one has said anything about it (except you), so I am not sure whether
to move forward.

-- 
Bruce Momjian                          |  830 Blythe Avenue
maillist@candle.pha.pa.us              |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  (610) 353-9879(w)
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  (610) 853-3000(h)

Re: [GENERAL] Not about LOGOs this time...

Amos Hayes <ahayes@ingenia.com> — 1998-06-08T19:06:50Z

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Tom Good wrote:

> Marc - I know this is a hassle and I know we have a multiplicity of
> lists already but I really do see a need for a user orientation list.
> 
> I would hope we could get some ringers on it (Constantin, Jose, Tom, etc.)
> If there is something I could do to assist, let me know.  It might
> keep me out of trouble!

I would like to see an obvious forum for newbies. It could be a new list
(pgsql-newbie) or even just an inclusion in the mandate of an existing
list (pgsql-general?). As a postgresql newbie, I haven't yet seen an
obvious destination that advertises itself as welcome to newbie questions. 

And as an after-thought, a seperate newbie list might be a useful lump of
posts for identifying perceived areas of weakness in the documentation. 

--
Amos Hayes					  Systems Architect
ahayes@ingenia.com			Ingenia Group - Software Kinetics Ltd.
http://smurf.ingenia.com/~ahayes		http://www.ingenia.com

"Remember: No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
   - ELEANOR ROOSEVELT