Thread

1. SAP-DB

   Don Baccus <dhogaza@pacifier.com> — 2001-04-29T04:28:47Z

   Hi guys,
   
       > 
   
       > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty
   damned
   
       > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is
   somewhat
   
       > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build
   
       > tools/environment.
   
       > 
   
       > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB
   to see
   
       > what postgres can learn.
   
   
       I downloaded it.  The directories are two characters in length, the
   
       files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. 
   Need
   
       I say more.  :-)
   
   
   
   I swore I'd never post to the hackers list again, but this is an 
   amazing
   
   statement by Bruce.
   
   
   Boy, the robustness of the software is determined by the number of
   characters
   
   in the directory name? 
   
   
   By the languages used?
   
   
   Have you considered that the development tools may
   
   be abstracting out the directory names in their development 
   environment?
   
   
   
   Someone else dissed this release because you need their development
   tools.
   
   
   Well, guess what big boys, the development tools are being released 
   open
   
   source, too.  And SAP has a history of giving you sources (not fiche or
   
   whatever) of their licensed technology so this is a fairly easy step 
   for
   
   them.  
   
   
   Not by the fact that SAP is a monster company, with a monster customer
   base,
   
   with a DB engine hardly used over here but actually quite popular in
   Germany?
   
   
   Quite popular in exactly the kind of enterprise environments that PG has
   yet
   
   to crack and, if you dismiss this offering with silly hand-waving, may
   never
   
   crack?
   
   
   Have you ever heard of Adabas?
   
   
   If you don't believe that SAP and SAP-DB are real, go talk to your
   fellow
   
   Great Bridge employee Jan Wieck.
   
   
   OK, I'll unsubscribe now ... <italic>I'm </italic>still a fan of PG, but
   not stupid enough to 
   
   dismiss a robust, industrial-strength RDMBS system based on naive and
   
   uneducated criticism.
   
   
   PG has a lot to offer, and the upscale is still amazingly positive
   judging
   
   by the pace of development over the past two years.  This is hardly a
   basis
   
   for hand-waving SAP DB into MySQL-land, however.  I like PG, I will
   continue
   
   to personally use PG, and I will support SAP DB along with Oracle and PG
   with
   
   OpenACS 4.x.
   
   
   And I would expect most of my clients using that toolkit to use Oracle,
   
   with SAP DB coming in second, and PG third ...
   
   
   I'm not trying to demotivate or discourage the PG crowd.  However, when
   you're
   
   in a competitive battle the best prescription for getting your bell run
   is to
   
   taunt and tease competitors who actually are in better shape than you.
   
   
   And ... SAP DB is, in many ways important to the enterprise
   organization.
   
   
   They may have an inferior page-locking concurrency scheme, I need to
   check on
   
   this, but in many enterprise-level commercial environments this isn't
   such a big deal.
   
   Since your (Bruce's) hopes for a wealthy future depends on GB IPO'ing
   which
   
   will only come with significant penetration of the enterprise commercial
   environment,
   
   I humbly suggest you don't write them off quite so quickly.
   
   
   SAP is, after all, a very successful company.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   - Don Baccus, Portland OR <<dhogaza@pacifier.com>
   
     Nature photos, on-line guides, Pacific Northwest
   
     Rare Bird Alert Service and other goodies at
   
     http://donb.photo.net.
   
   

2. Re: SAP-DB

   Matthew N. Dodd <winter@jurai.net> — 2001-04-29T04:40:43Z

   On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Don Baccus wrote:
   > I humbly suggest you don't write them off quite so quickly.
   > 
   > SAP is, after all, a very successful company.
   
   So is Microsoft.
   
   I got the between the lines part of Bruce's post and agree with him.
   
   -- 
   | Matthew N. Dodd  | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD  |
   | winter@jurai.net |       2 x '84 Volvo 245DL        | ix86,sparc,pmax |
   | http://www.jurai.net/~winter |  For Great Justice!  | ISO8802.5 4ever |
   
   
   

3. Re: SAP-DB

   mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> — 2001-04-29T17:12:08Z

   Don Baccus wrote:
   > 
   > Hi guys,
   > >
   > > I've used the open source SAPDB and the performance is pretty damned
   > > impressive. However, 'open source' in application to it is somewhat
   > > deceptive, since you have to make it with SAP's proprietary build
   > > tools/environment.
   > >
   > > In my opinion, however, it would be worth closely auditing SAP DB to see
   > > what postgres can learn.
   > 
   > I downloaded it. The directories are two characters in length, the
   > files are numbers, and it is a mixture of C++, Python, and Pascal. Need
   > I say more. :-)
   > 
   > I swore I'd never post to the hackers list again, but this is an amazing
   > statement by Bruce.
   > 
   > Boy, the robustness of the software is determined by the number of characters
   > in the directory name?
   > 
   > By the languages used?
   
   [Snip]
   
   My guess is that Bruce was implying that the code was obfuscated. It is a
   common trick for closed source to be "open" but not really.
   
   I don't think it was any sort of technology snobbery. Far be it for me to
   suggest an explanation to the words of others, that is just how I read it.
   
   
   -- 
   I'm not offering myself as an example; every life evolves by its own laws.
   ------------------------
   http://www.mohawksoft.com
   
   

4. Re: Re: SAP-DB

   Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> — 2001-04-29T17:32:21Z

   > > I swore I'd never post to the hackers list again, but this is an amazing
   > > statement by Bruce.
   > > 
   > > Boy, the robustness of the software is determined by the number of characters
   > > in the directory name?
   > > 
   > > By the languages used?
   > 
   > [Snip]
   > 
   > My guess is that Bruce was implying that the code was obfuscated. It is a
   > common trick for closed source to be "open" but not really.
   > 
   > I don't think it was any sort of technology snobbery. Far be it for me to
   > suggest an explanation to the words of others, that is just how I read it.
   
   I don't think they intentionally confused the code.
   
   The real problem I see in that it was very hard for me to find anything
   in the code.  I would be interested to see if others can find stuff.
   
   -- 
     Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
     pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
     +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
     +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
   
   

5. Re: SAP-DB

   Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> — 2001-04-29T17:37:20Z

   > Have you considered that the development tools may
   > 
   > be abstracting out the directory names in their development 
   > environment?
   
   I never considered this, but it makes sense.  I didn't try the
   development tools and went right to the code.  I did find a web site
   that described the two-letter directory names and their meanings so I
   thought that was all there was.  Seems their development tools make the
   code more understandable.  Has anyone tried it?
   
   > I humbly suggest you don't write them off quite so quickly.
   
   I never wrote them off.  I just couldn't figure any of it out.
   
   -- 
     Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
     pgman@candle.pha.pa.us               |  (610) 853-3000
     +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  830 Blythe Avenue
     +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
   
   

6. Re: Re: SAP-DB

   Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net> — 2001-04-29T19:49:11Z

   * Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> [010429 10:44] wrote:
   > > > I swore I'd never post to the hackers list again, but this is an amazing
   > > > statement by Bruce.
   > > > 
   > > > Boy, the robustness of the software is determined by the number of characters
   > > > in the directory name?
   > > > 
   > > > By the languages used?
   > > 
   > > [Snip]
   > > 
   > > My guess is that Bruce was implying that the code was obfuscated. It is a
   > > common trick for closed source to be "open" but not really.
   > > 
   > > I don't think it was any sort of technology snobbery. Far be it for me to
   > > suggest an explanation to the words of others, that is just how I read it.
   > 
   > I don't think they intentionally confused the code.
   > 
   > The real problem I see in that it was very hard for me to find anything
   > in the code.  I would be interested to see if others can find stuff.
   
   I think this is general problem in a lot of projects, you open up
   foo.c and say... "what the heck is this..." after a few hours of
   studying the source you finally figure out is something that does
   miniscule part X of massive part Y and by then you're too engrossed
   to write a little banner for the file or dir explaining what it's
   for and incorrectly assume that even if you did, it wouldn't help
   that user unless he went through the same painful steps that you
   did.
   
   Been there, done that.. er, actually, still there, mostly still
   doing that.  :)
   
   -- 
   -Alfred Perlstein - [alfred@freebsd.org]
   http://www.egr.unlv.edu/~slumos/on-netbsd.html